YouTube Discussion: Sulaiman and Michael

(Response to your Part 1 Response)

Sure, let’s continue! I am Sulaiman…

I never stated that there was only one kingdom. I simply referenced a scripture in which Christ is speaking about the kingdom of heaven and how the sons or children of that kingdom were getting cast out. I also never said that the only option was to be in or out. Being cast out of God’s kingdom is temporary. When you quoted Matthew 13:37-43, I agreed with you that the passage spoke about 2 kingdoms but I said you was getting a little ahead of yourself. I never said that was a stretch. In Matthew 8:11-13, Jesus clearly makes a reference to the sons of the kingdom being cast out of the kingdom of heaven. So we’re trying to identify who the sons of the kingdom are and whose kingdom Christ is referring to. I think it’s clear from the context that Christ is referring to the Jewish nation and the kingdom of God. Who are the many coming from the east and west and what is the significance of sitting with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven?

I am very familiar with Matthew 7:13-14 and how it used out of context to justify doctrines such as an eternal hell. Scripture does make numerous references to the kingdom of heaven but there isn’t a single SCRIPTURE that speaks about hell. Bibles speak about hell but scripture and bibles are not the same thing. Bibles are works of men whereas, scripture was inspired of God. You can say that hell is biblical but you can’t say hell is scriptural. Not all biblical writing is scripture and while most errors are of little consequence, this is not the case with the doctrine of hell. This is where I must draw the line because there is no room for debate here. Hell is a false doctrine and it is rank heresy. I will come back to this in a minute but let me just say that I agree with you that the children of the wicked on was a reference to the children of Israel or more specifically the religious leadership of Israel. That was made clear by Christ on numerous occasions. Since you believe that the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be a literal story, I must assume that you believe that the children of the wicked one are cast into a literal furnace of fire and the weeping and gnashing of teeth is just a descriptor of actually being burned with fire. Since we can agree that the parable of the sower is in fact a parable, how then does it make sense to interpret certain parts of the text literally? It’s not your reading that’s the issue, it’s your interpretation. That’s the point I’ve been trying to make when you take parabolic writings and interpret them literally. The kingdom of heaven is not the same heaven that is idolized throughout Christianity. The kingdom of heaven is a spiritual realm that can be experienced in this life. The degree to which one can dwell in the kingdom of heaven depends on a person’s spiritual walk.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.

How could the Son of man be in heaven while He was on earth talking to people? It doesn’t say that He will be going to heaven, it say which is in heaven. Jesus was already in heaven at that very moment because heaven is spiritual. Jesus was with His Father who art in heaven.

In regards to Romans 11:25, why would Paul need to say, “blindness in full” to corroborate my belief that the children of the kingdom that Christ says will be cast out is a reference to the children of Israel? Paul goes on to say that all Israel shall be saved so blindness in part only refers to a certain time period so that God can make the kingdom of God accessible to the Gentile nations. Being cast out of the kingdom is a temporary condition. I never said every Jew was wicked or that every Jew forgot God but the fact that Christ calls them the children of the kingdom means they already held that position.

Luke 13:27-28 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when YOU see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and YOURSELVES thrust out.

Jesus is speaking directly to a certain group of people but who is His audience? The context is clear that Jesus is talking to Jews. He is speaking to the children of Israel. I don’t see how there can be any confusion on this topic.

Yes there are those who believe and those who do not believe but the question I ask is, “How does one come to believe?” Sure there are those who believe and those who do not but how did you come to believe? Did you do it all by yourself without any work from God? You didn’t need His spirit, His gifts, and Him working in you to do His work?

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I agree that unbelief is a sin but this begs the question to what does it really mean to believe… We know from scripture that God is only choosing a few elect in this age to reign with Christ as priests in the kingdom of God but many are called. If God is doing the choosing then how then can one claim credit for what God has done and is doing in one’s life? God is responsible for those who do not believe for God makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. Philippians 2:13 says it is God that works in us to WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure. Even in Ephesians 2:10 it goes on to say that WE, (those whom God has chosen to be vessels of honor by His gift of faith to will and to do His good pleasure) are His workmanship. Other translations use the words accomplishment or masterpiece in substitute for the word workmanship.

Romans 11:32 For God has concluded ALL IN UNBELIEF, that he may have mercy on all.

How does one come out of unbelief if God has concluded us all in it? You quoted Revelation 2:18 saying that unbelievers will be condemned but I think you meant Revelation 21:8. I don’t exactly know what you mean by condemned but biblically speaking, to be condemned simply means to be put to death. Jesus was condemned (Mark 14:64, Luke 24:20). Revelations 21:8 says that unbelievers (among others) will have their PART (not full using the same argument you posed regarding Romans 11:25) in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone which is the second death. The lake of fire and its true meaning has long evaded the carnal minds of Christians for centuries. How be it that anyone with the spirit of God could ever read the book of Revelation and not conclude that it is a book full of symbols and metaphors yet still come to the conclusion that being cast into a lake of fire is literal and meant to cause insane torment for all eternity. The lake of fire is God’s crucible and just as a refiner refines silver, God refines humanity.

Proverbs 17:3 The crucible for silver and the furnace for gold, but the Lord tests the heart.

Malachi 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

The lake of fire is one God’s greatest mysteries and those who believe it to have a sinister purpose prove they no more believe in God than the unbelievers they damn to eternal condemnation. Hebrews in no way contradicts Ephesians 2:8-9. Do you really think that al the patriarchs spoken of in Hebrews 11 acted alone and without God’s influence? Hebrews 11 is called “The Hall of Faith” by Christians because Christians take credit for what only God can do. How can you remove God from the equation when Christ Himself says without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5)?

If God wants you, me, or anyone to obey a command or to do a particular task, He will cause all of the necessary things to happen so that we will all volunteer to do whatever it is God is calling us to do. Does God not follow through with His promises? If God promised the children of Israelites victory, then God knew that He had to cause whatever needed to happen so that the children of Israel would volunteer to obey. Unbelief and faith are not choices. They are caused actions. Unbelief is NOT what caused Eve to sin against God in the garden. Even was deceived by the serpent and lust drove her to sin against God. The lust of the eyes as she saw the tree was good to look at, the lust of the flesh as the tree was good for food, and the pride of life (the desire to be wise). She had no more a choice to fight against the desires and pulls of the flesh than any of us do without God’s helping hand. Romans 8:20 tells us that the creation was made subject to vanity… which means that we were created in a worthless condition. The flesh cannot please God. Obedience is more than just a result of believing. Hebrews 5:8 says that Christ learned obedience from the things he suffered. Judgment produces obedience and not just belief in and of itself. You cannot quote John 3:16 and somehow think it removes the need for God to elect the ones He wants to be priests with Christ. John 3:16 is taken out of context and is one of the most misinterpreted verses in the entire bible. Whosever believes shall not be perishing (for the age to come). Everyone perishes (dies) in this current age since it is appointed unto to die once (Hebrews 9:27) but that first death continues into the coming age for those that don’t believe. Christ never promised anyone everlasting life. Everlasting life is an idol of bibles and since most Christians idolize bibles, they see no reason to study this matter thoroughly. The Greek word “aionios” does not mean everlasting or eternal. It means age-abiding. Believers are promised aionios age-abiding life that they will experience in the resurrection to life. They reign with Christ for a millennia not for all eternity. After the millennial age commences believers continue to live because they were made immortal in the resurrection.

Going back to Luke 16, it is not prudent for me to continue beating a dead horse if you insist on making this parable a real story. It simply isn’t and you will never understand it until you accept that fact. Abraham is nowhere because Abraham is dead. You cannot create magical made up places just because it justifies certain Christian dogmas you’ve chosen to embrace. I personally don’t have a problem with your choice to believe whatever it is you choose to believe but it is just mind boggling that you would choose to believe a doctrine that blatantly contradicts other scriptures. Sinners who die go to the grave to await the resurrection. That’s it! Period…. There is no afterlife limbo, Abraham’s bosom, paradise intermediary before the resurrection. Who was Abraham to the Jews? They believed Abraham to be their father so this would indicate that they at least felt like they had a close relationship with Abraham. Lazarus (who represents the Gentile nations) is in the bosom of Abraham a position of closeness which is where the rich man (Judah) believed he belonged. Abraham’s bosom is not a place and Luke 23:43 has long been used by Christians to justify some pagan afterlife where Jesus is supposedly preaching to spirits while He’s supposed to be dead and dying for the sins of the world. Jesus did not go to paradise ON THAT DAY, He went to Hades on that day and He stayed there for 2 nights. Jesus was only telling the thief on the cross on that specific day as a promise that he would be with Him in paradise. In John 20:17-19, Jesus did not ascend to His Father only to return back to earth in the evening… you read the text incorrectly. Jesus told Mary to go tell His brothers that He is ascending to His Father but hadn’t ascended yet. Paradise is a Persian word that means a garden so the garden of God that is being guarded by flaming swords (back in Genesis) is not the same “paradise” that modern day people have come to believe. Paradise is experienced post resurrection. Jesus never talked about life after death before the resurrection. These are Christian dogmas you are defending, not truths from God. Again, Jesus never told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise…

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

What do you notice about this scripture that you may not recognize off first glance? This scripture has significant punctuation added that was never a part of the original Greek manuscripts. The insertion of a comma before the word “today” automatically forces the reader to pause at that point in the sentence which changes how the scripture is interpreted. Now if you put that same comma AFTER the word “today”, it then has a totally different meaning. So how do we figure out which version is correct? We know which version is correct based on how it agrees with other scriptures. The first version contradicts all of the scriptures that tell what happens at death and it contradicts the truth that Christ actually did in fact die, was buried, and rose from the dead. Jesus was just assuring the thief on the cross ON THAT DAY (which just happened to be the day of his death) that he would be with Him in paradise. This is in agreement with the understanding that Jesus did in fact die on the cross and was buried in a sepulcher. This can be read in John 19. You don’t believe that Jesus died? How can you believe that when you don’t even believe that being dead means to actually be dead…? The fact of the matter is that Jesus and both thieves DID all go to the same place. They all went to Hades because that’s where everyone goes. Everyone goes to the UNSEEN place which is the same place we were before we was born. We didn’t exist before we was born and at death we return to that unseen place of nonexistence. The thief that asked Jesus to remember him was not saved instantly because he is still in Hades awaiting the resurrection. There is no salvation in death.

At the end of my first reply I did state that much of what you are arguing comes from religion and not from God. You stated that you gave me verses straight from the bible and you did. I have no argument there but what good is it to quote bible verses that are taken out of context or the interpretation is based on Christian tradition? We can’t even agree as to what it means to be dead… I wouldn’t exactly say that I don’t believe the bible because that’s really a loaded statement. There are DOZENS of bible translations and many of them disagree with each other in terms of how words are translated. I’ll give you a simple example… The Greek participle “ou” is both translated as the words “NOT” and “NEVER”. That is poor academic scholarship because the meaning of a word cannot contradict its own meaning. This word “ou” cannot both mean not and never because it’s a contradiction. This is just one example. There are many more so when you say “bible”, you are lumping all bible translations together and assuming they all agree and are the Word of God. This just isn’t true. The last commandment of Christ to His disciples was to preach the gospel but who is doing that? Most people don’t even know what the gospel is. How can you preach the gospel when you don’t even know what it is? Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World… Christianity disagrees with that. You disagree with that. That is the very essence of the gospel but the majority of Christianity believes that Christ is going to fail at saving the world even though Adam was 100% successful in condemning all of humanity to death. Christianity preaches a perverted gospel the results in the majority of humanity being sentenced to eternal torture in hell.

(Response to your Part 2 Response)

Let me be clear here in stating that Sheol is a Hebrew word. Hades is a Greek word but these two words mean the same thing they are just in different languages. Since we are discussing the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the word we are dealing with is Hades. Hell does NOT mean Sheol or Hades. We don’t need to define hell because hell is not a scriptural word. We need to define Sheol and Hades so that we can eliminate hell from the entire equation. I didn’t necessarily list one bible verse that includes hell, we’ve been talking about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that includes the word hell in many popular bible translations. You are digging yourself in a deeper hole trying to prove that hell exists by quoting more mistranslated scriptures. How does that make sense? 2 Peter 2:4 is likely one of the worst exegeted scriptures in the entire bible. Do you by chance ever use a Hebrew or Greek interlinear when you are studying the bible? I’m asking because there is so much hidden under the surface. If you go to the Blue Letter Bible website, you can look up the Hebrew and Greek of any scripture in the KJV and the NASB and look up their original meanings. The first issue is the word “angel” and how this word is understand and interpreted in our culture. This word comes from the Greek word “aggelos” and it simply means a messenger. There is no distinction as whether aggelos could be human or spiritual from the word alone. John the Baptist was called a messenger which came from the same word translated as angel but we know that John the Baptist wasn’t an angel in God’s heaven because he was a man. Do the angels of heaven die? No, the angels of heaven do not die (Luke 20:36) but the “angels” in 2 Peter 2:4 sinned… What are the wages of sin? Death… So these “angels” that sinned are not the angels of heaven that somehow chose to sin against God. These “angels” that sinned are human messengers in high positions of leadership. The second issue is the phrase “cast [them] down to hell” which is translated from just one single word in the Greek which is “tartaroō”. The interesting thing about this word is that it is a VERB so there is no way that this one verb could ever be translated as the whole phrase “cast [them] down to hell”. The bible translators added hell to this verse for no apparent reason other than to seemingly give the doctrine of hell some legs to stand on. It’s heresy. God did not spare the human messengers of God that sinned against Him so He cast them down (from their high positions) to their deaths (chained in darkness) to be reserved (future) for judgment (the second resurrection to judgment not damnation). You misquoted Matthew 10:28 so let me quote it here so that we can both be on the same page…

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

There are a few things that need to be addressed here. The first thing I need to address is the word “soul” as it used in this verse. The word soul is translated from the Greek word “psyche” which is where we get the word psychology. Psychology has to do with the study of the mind and how the brain works. This is the seat of actions and a person’s consciousness. If the brain is dead, you are dead because the body cannot function without the mind. The mind is what give consciousness and activity to the body so the word “life” is more appropriate than the word soul. The Greek word “psyche” is translated as the word life in 40 scriptures so it is not without reason that this would be an appropriate thing to consider since we know from Genesis, that a soul is the combination of a body and spirit (life). So let’s see the verse as it should read;

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill your life: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both your life and body in hell (GEHENNA not hell).

This is why reading a Hebrew or Greek interlinear is important because you can see for yourself how bible translators changed words and added what they wanted to add. Jesus spoke about gehenna not hell. Do you know what gehenna is? It is actually the Greek combination of two Hebrew words meaning Valley of Hinnom. The Valley of Hinnom was a place where the Israelites had their children burned through the fire unto the pagan god Molech but this practice was abolished by King Josiah. The place later became like a waste dump for refuse, the bodies of dead animals, and executed criminal. They kept the fires burning at gehenna and Christ used this as a metaphor in how God destroys the works of the flesh. Yes man can kill your physical body but man cannot kill the part of you that makes you alive. God is the sustainer and holder of life which is something man cannot touch. We all come from the dust but life comes from God. Notice the distinction in the verse in that God doesn’t kill, He DESTROYS. He can destroy your physical body and give you a spiritual body. He can also destroy the carnal you and perfect you into His spiritual image. Yes, you should revere God for His majesty and love not fear Him as if He is the boogieman. Yes there are worse things than being dead because in death you feel nothing. Going through corrective judgment is worse than death. This is along the same lines as the thought that a life sentence in prison is worse than the death penalty.

In Matthew 18:9, Christ speaks about gehenna fire not hell fire. Gehenna fire has to do with destroying the works of Adam, the carnal man in all of us. Christ is simply saying that it would be better for you to judge yourself in this life rather than be judged by God in the next life. The life He is talking about entering is the life in the resurrection to life. There is no life after the grave before the resurrection. If it was, why didn’t Paul talk about it at all in 1 Corinthians 15?

1 Corinthians 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

How can those that have fallen asleep in Christ be perished if they are alive in some place called Abraham’s Bosom or Paradise? Paul makes no mention of any life outside of the resurrection after death. He never once mentions Abrahams Bosom or Paradise as being places people go to after death.

The example Jesus uses only seems to be extreme when you interpret it literally. Jesus knows that no one can abstain from sin without God’s help. This is about giving up things in this life and dying to the carnal man. No one will ever perfect this in this life but believers should be making progress. If you literally plucked out one eye does that mean that you will not be able to ever offend with the other eye? That would be absurd. Gehenna fire in and of itself is a metaphor and while Jesus may not have been telling a parable per se, He is still speaking with symbols and figurative language. If people could obey God’s commandments then there would be no need for Christ. The only thing that can change or bring about correction to the sinful condition of the human heart is the fiery trials of God.

Yes we all die but to you dying doesn’t even mean to die. Salvation doesn’t come to anyone in this life. Christ talks about overcoming the world. This is a lifelong journey. Being saved or getting saved (past tense) is a Christian dogma. I never said that there isn’t life beyond the grave, I just believe that whatever life a person experiences after death only comes in the resurrection of the DEAD. There would be no point in a resurrection of the DEAD if people are not really dead. Gehenna fire judgment is God’s judgment against humanity for Christ says everyone will be salted with fire. You just either go through it in this life or you go through it in a future age to come. You cannot replace hell with Sheol or Hades because neither of those words mean hell nor have anything to do with the doctrine of hell. You are allowing your own interpretation to flood your mind instead of allowing “scripture” to teach you. You want even take the time to eliminate words that aren’t scripture. Hell is NOT scripture. Everyone goes to Sheol/Hades. The place of realm of the dead that is unseen where there is no perception, reason, activity, or understanding… When we die, we return to the state of being nonexistent until the resurrection. How can you say that I’ve gotten Sheol and Hades from sources outside of scripture when both of these words are the original words used in scripture? Hell is the word that has been improperly translated from these words which clearly came from sources outside of scripture.

You say, “I’m simply using the words that are in scripture trusting in God that he did not let the first English translation be so corrupted by the devil that it needed more revising”.

But you aren’t using words that are in scripture. You are assuming that every single word that is written in your preferred bible translation has been perfectly preserved by God specifically for you. It’s a nice sentiment but you should know just from how the world works that God doesn’t work that way. I am not talking about just revisions, I’m talking about willful translation corruption. If there are really a few that find it (the path that leads to life), then it would seem that this path to life would be extremely difficult to achieve. This path to life is the path to aionios age-abiding life in an additional age of life beyond this age. The rest of the world does not get to participate in this life as they are still in the grave awaiting the resurrection to judgment. If death is not really death then none of this makes any sense. Trusting in God for whatever is not permission to be ignorant. You have to study to show yourself approved and you have to learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, WHO DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How does the devil deceive the whole world? Do you think God is incapable of stopping the devil? God created the devil. The devil cannot do anything that God doesn’t authorize. If the devil deceives the whole world then there has to be room for such deception. Would corrupting God’s word fall under this category? I don’t see why not. What would be the best way for the devil to deceive Christians? Changing the words of God which is exactly what the serpent did in the beginning back in Genesis. English bibles have undergone numerous revisions over the centuries and not without the cost of blood. It was considered a crime against the Roman Catholic Church to translate the Latin scriptures into English. William Tyndale attempted to do just that and he was strangled to death before being burned at the stake. Talk about loving your enemy. The Catholics saw nothing wrong with being so gruesome and evil seeing that they believe in a god that is going to torture most of humanity in real fire. That’s why the church had no problem sending people to such a horrible fate. They believed in a god that was supposedly going to do far worse than just being burned at the stake alive.

The King James Bible of 1611 included 14 whole books known as the Apocrypha that have since been removed as it is not considered to be biblical canon. Never mind the scores of years that passed when people believed and relied on the teachings of those books.

 You said, “Like I said, for the sake of argument we can replace Hell with Sheol or Hades but how come they don’t fit in these verses as death being the end of all life?”

We cannot replace Hell with Sheol or Hades because Hell doesn’t have the same meaning as Sheol and Hades. I’ve already explained this. You are expecting me to explain how your bad interpretation doesn’t work with scripture. You haven’t made a compelling argument here and I would venture to say that you have contradicted yourself on a number of occasions. When something dies, its life ends. That is the meaning of death. Death is the opposite of life. You did NOT exist before you was born. So if you weren’t alive before you was born, there is no reason to assume that you will be alive after you die. This is common since but people choose to believe fables. The bible talks about this in 1 and 2 Timothy. There is no life after death before the resurrection and to suggest such is a slight at Christ for He is the resurrection and the life.

I said that mercy triumphs over judgment and you said you disagreed but that statement is scripture!

James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT.

The point here or the lesson to take away is that it is better to be merciful than it is to be judgmental.

You said, “God was under no obligation to send his perfect son to die for us because we are unworthy sinners who have offended the almighty God. Why did God have to do so much for his enemies? Because he’s merciful as you already said. Does that mean that God just forgets judgment? Have you forgotten God’s righteous anger against sinners?”

Offended? How can an all-knowing all-powerful Creator be offended? How did we offend God? One must be sensitive enough to get an offended and that would at the least suggest weakness. God is not weak like human beings. Who made us? Do you believe that we made ourselves the way we are? Are you obligated to die for the people you love? Would you die for the people you love? We did exactly what God designed us to do. He made humanity flesh and with the flesh comes all of the lust thereof. Romans 8:20 says that the creation was made subject to vanity not willingly but by Him that subjected the same in hope… We are not God’s enemies we are His children, His creation. Sure God is merciful but God’s judgment is not like the judgment of men. Mercy doesn’t eliminate judgment. Mercy ensures that judgment is fair and righteous because there is a corrective component to it. God’s judgment towards Israel is not the same as God’s judgment against sinners however, God’s judgment always leads to righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).

You quoted John 3:14 (not 3:13) but you totally miss what Jesus is saying in this passage. There are many called but few chosen. That is what Jesus was talking about. This was not a message of salvation for the world, this was a message of the promise of an additional age of life for those that believe, emphasis on the actual act of believing because many Christians do not believe in the Son of God. You have placed the words “eternal life” in all caps as to add emphasis when you don’t even realize that it’s not scripture. This doctrine of eternal life is man-made although the concept still can be understood from a scriptural standpoint. A person made immortal essentially has eternal life but that’s not what the scriptures say. The Greek word aionios means age-abiding not eternal. You ignore the meaning of the original word that was inspired of God and you’ve chosen to embrace the words and doctrines of men. Whosoever “believes” will not be perishing into the coming eon, the age to come. To perish means to die. Everyone dies. Jesus NEVER said that people won’t die because people die every day. That much is obvious but you are taking this false idea of eternal life and adding it to the scriptural message here and it’s no wonder why you don’t understand it. Believers will not be perishing into the coming age because Christ is going to call them from the grave to immortality and to reign with Him in the kingdom of God. This idea that Christ saves us from His Father instead of death is just absurd. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. God’s wrath on humanity is death.

When have I suggested that God isn’t just? You think being tortured in hellfire is a just punishment just for being rich? What was the rich man’s sin? What was Lazarus’s virtue? Since when is being poor a guarantee of salvation for anyone? This is just more proof that this story is a parable. There is no point in continuing to discuss this topic if you continue to use a parable to justify the teachings you believe that contradict other scriptures regarding death. The whole basis of your argument is centered on the fact that you believe Luke 16:19-31 is a real story. If you are wrong then your entire theology is wrong. Where are you other witnesses? I have shown you dozens of scriptures that contradict what you believe yet you still choose to embrace your ideas over the scriptures which you claim to uphold. I am not exchanging Hell for Sheol or Hades and I don’t know what you keep saying that. Sheol and Hades came before Hell. That’s what you’re not understanding. Hades is the original word found in the Greek manuscripts. Hades was then changed to Hell when the church decided that scaring people with an eternal afterlife of torture was more effective in filling church pews as opposed to just telling the truth. The only reason why Hades doesn’t fit from your perspective is because you believe the entire passage is a real story when it isn’t. You haven’t proven that it’s a real story and you’ve actually contradicted yourself as I’ve stated before. There phrases about this parable that you do not understand mainly because you think it’s literal. You beginning premise is wrong so how then can you ask questions when you won’t even correct that? The rich man (Judah) is in the torment of God’s fiery judgment for God is a consuming fire. You obviously have no clue how to interpret biblical poetry. Fire is used in scripture as a metaphor on numerous occasions and is never meant to be taken literally. The rich man is tormented when he is resurrected from dead in the resurrection to judgment. There is no life after death before the resurrection. The life the rich man is in is his life in the resurrection to judgment after having being perished for the previous age in the resurrection to life. I don’t just choose not to believe in Hell for no good reason. I choose not to believe in Hell because it is a terrible Christian lie. You keep making assumptions about my beliefs without even considering that you could be wrong about a single detail. You are almost wrong about everything. The rich man is NOT being tormented in Hades nor is he conscious. I have explained this already and have proven with scripture that the dead know nothing. The word hell is not even in this passage of scripture at all and that’s what you fail to understand. Hell is NOT scripture. Never was and it never will be. Now your choice to embrace it as such is a totally different situation. I didn’t write the bible and there are numerous bible translation that have left the word “Hades” in Luke 16:23 untranslated;

Luke 16:23 And IN HADES he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. (New American Standard Bible)

Luke 16:23 IN HADES, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom. (World English Bible)

Luke 16:23 and IN THE HADES having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom, (Young’s Literal Translation).

So, Hades is scripture… HELL IS NOT SCRIPTURE! Hell is the word that religious people have added to word of God and you believe them. I don’t know how many times I have to explain this but the rich man died and was buried. So the rich man is dead. He is no longer alive. He is in “HADES”, the unseen, the place of no return. There is no life in Hades. THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING! I am not rewriting scripture to make Hades fit as being the end of all life. That is how Hades or Sheol is defined in scripture. Usage is the best way to determine meaning not religious speculation. This entire debate is futile because you continue to make your arguments assuming that Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. I never denied that the rich man has a body but to assume that he has a body other than his physical one when eyes and tongues are part of the physical anatomy, you are grasping for straws struggling to justify your own arguments. The rich man died and he will stay dead until the resurrection when he lifts up his eyes from Hades (the place of the dead, NOT LIVING) in the resurrection to judgment. The fact that you think the doctrine of hell has anything to do with Jesus proves how deceived you are. Yes I said, “Aren’t eyes part of a physical body?…. Well, is it true or not? I never suggested that it was completely impossible I just asked a simple question. You cannot compare God to man. Have you ever physically experienced sight outside of what you can see with your physical eyes? Surely these physical limitations do not apply to the Creator. You said, “Anyone reading the bible as it is would see that the rich man died and was buried, and as scripture says “In hell, he lift up his eyes, being in torment…” but that’s not entirely true. Your preferred bible translation doesn’t necessarily equal scripture. I showed you several bible translations that show the Greek word Hades which some translations translate as Hell but that doesn’t make Hell scripture. The rich man is not in Hell being tormented and he’s not even in Hades being tormented. The rich man goes to Hades and then lifts up his eyes in the resurrection to judgment where he will be chastised and tested. The Greek word “basanos” which most popular bibles translate as the English word torment but is actually a word that has to do with how gold is tested in fire. It has nothing to do with physical torture. You claim to believe in Jesus yet you won’t even test yourself. You much prefer to cling to your own thoughts and beliefs that you clearly idolize. You ignore dozens of scriptures that contradict what you believe but you seemingly do not care as long as you have one story that you misinterpret that makes you feel like you are right. You cannot prove an argument by creating a contradiction. When it comes to religion I do have something against people lying to ignorant people to gain wealth and status within the religious community. Religions is supposed to be for God but it isn’t. Religion is and has always been about men controlling men.

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