Punishment – God’s Way

Part 6

This next section on the word punishment as used in scripture poses another problem when used in connection with the inaccurate translation of aionios meaning eternal. Punishment in scripture has a very different meaning then what we typically think of when using this word. The word punishment is used 27 times in the King James version. There are several words in the original language that are translated to mean punishment. I will focus on the words that are associated with punishment as it is used in regards to hell or eternal punishment as described in the King James version.

I will start with the Greek word “kolasis” which is used in the KJV twice. In one verse it is rendered punishment and in the other verse torment. Let’s look at the two verses;

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath TORMENT.  He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

The English words punishment and torment both have different meanings but remember that these two different words come from the same Greek word kolasis. The primary definition of this word in biblical use is; correction, punishment, and penalty. The root word of kolasis is kolazō and it also is only used in the KJV twice. The primary definition of this word in biblical use is; to chastise, correct, and punishment. Let’s look at the two verses in which the Greek word kolazō is used to mean punish(ed);

Acts 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might PUNISH them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be PUNISHED:

Now let’s take a closer look at the words in these verses above starting with Matthew 25:46 which is mistranslated due to the use of the word eternal. We already know that eternal (aiōnios) means pertaining to the ages or age abiding so let’s look at another translation of this verse that’s accurately translated;

Matthew 25:46 And these shall be coming away into CHASTENING eonian, yet the just into life eonian. Concordant Literal New Testament

Eoanian here means – pertaining to the eons (eons =ages). Notice in this translation, they use chastening instead of punishment. Here is the problem with the King James Version. The translators of the KJV translated with a certain scary feeling of doom and gloom with their use of certain words. We already see from above that the definition of both Greek words “kolasis” and “kolazō” include the word correction. In a way, they all mean the very same thing but the word punishment just sounds worse especially when you combine it with unscriptural words like eternal and hell.

It is a common belief that God’s punishment involves sending people to the place called hell where people are tortured in real fire for eternity. Let’s take another look at 2 Peter 2:9;

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and TO RESERVE the unjust unto THE DAY OF JUDGMENT TO BE PUNISHED:

Do you notice the word reserve in this scripture? What does it mean to reserve something? If I called a popular restaurant and made a reservation, that means that I am confirming that I will be there at a later time but not at the present time. The doctrine of hell teaches that the unjust or unbelieving immediately go directly to hell after death. This verse plainly tells us that the punishment of the unjust is RESERVED until the day of judgement and not in some pagan hell of real fire. All of the evil, unjust, and unbelieving people who have died are at present, reserved in their graves. There will be a day of judgment but not in death. You have to be alive to be punished and this occurs in the resurrection.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Before we continue, let’s address this word “damnation” as it has been translated in this verse. In theology, damnation is defined as the concept of divine punishment and torment in an afterlife for actions committed on Earth. The word damnation is translated from the Greek word “krisis” and this word is translated as the word is found 48 times in the New Testament. Out of the 48 times “krisis” is translated, it was translated as the word “judgment” 41 times proving that damnation is not an appropriate translation for the Greek word krisis. Judgment always denotes correction and setting things right even in human courts.

Psalm 9:8 And HE SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which HE WILL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto ALL MEN, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Let’s explore some of the history of God’s punishment towards Israel as it is recorded in the Old Testament.

Now we should know that the Israelite’s were many times out of the favor of God due to sinning against Him by worshiping false gods and taking responsibility for building their own empire instead of giving the honor and glory to God. God punished the Israelite’s many times allowing them to be led into captivity and ultimately having their earthly kingdom destroyed. Let’s look at some scriptures that explain God’s relationship with the Israelite’s considering that they often failed to live up to the covenant that God established with them;

Psalm 78:10-11 They KEPT NOT THE COVENANT OF GOD, and REFUSED TO WALK IN HIS LAW; And FORGAT HIS WORKS, and his wonders that he had shewed them. This sure sounds like when they died, they would be good candidates for the place called hell.

2 Kings 17:7-8 For so it was, that THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL HAD SINNED AGAINST THE LORD THEIR GOD, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, And WALKED IN THE STATUTES OF THE HEATHEN, whom the Lord cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. Surely this means they went to hell right? They sinned against God and lived like wicked people. We know people like this today don’t we? They say one thing and do something totally different. We call these kind of people hypocrites. Don’t hypocrites go to hell?

Jeremiah 32:30 For THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL AND THE CHILDREN OF JUDAH HAVE ONLY DONE EVIL BEFORE ME from their youth: for THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL HAVE ONLY PROVOKED ME TO ANGER WITH THE WORK OF THEIR HANDS, saith the Lord. Things aren’t looking too good for the children of Israel and Judah. They have to be in hell because they pissed God off.

Amos 9:8 Behold, THE EYES OF THE LORD GOD ARE UPON THE SINFUL KINGDOM, and I WILL DESTROY IT FROM OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord. This has to mean there is absolutely no hope for sinning, blaspheming, backstabbing Israel right?

Listen to me, Israel turned their backs on God and they crucified his son Jesus Christ (really we all crucified Christ but they literally had it done). The Jews are guilty of the greatest sin in the world because they were given the original covenant from God. They broke the covenant, they sinned against God, and if we use the same evil teaching and belief of Christians, the Israelite’s deserve to be eternally punished in hell, right? Wrong…

Isaiah 55:8 For MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, NEITHER ARE YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, saith the Lord. We cannot understand everything pertaining to God’s ultimate plan for mankind. That is why people make stuff up to try and make sense of it all.

So what is the final fate of Israel considering the terrible things they did to God?

Romans 11:26 And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: God punishes but He will never sentence any of His creation to the evil man-made place of literal fire burning torture called hell.

Why is it so hard for us to understand that God will save all of humanity? Humans are evil and people like the idea of bad people being held responsible for their actions. My question is what crime on a human level would merit the consequence of eternal punishment in hell? Would raping 1,000 babies be sufficient? What about blowing up every single elementary school in America? Would that work? Maybe dropping a nuclear bomb on a whole continent killing everyone? Any objections? Try to think of the most evil punishment your brain can come up with. What do you think about this?

Revelation 21:8 But the FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. When you read Revelation 21:8, understand that the fearful, unbelieving, and liars are “grouped” together with murderers. With earthly human knowledge should a habitual liar receive the same punishment as a serial killer? Would that even make sense or be fair? Of course not and this is common sense to any human.

So let me ask you this; do you think that people who are fearful deserve to burn in hell for eternity? What about people who don’t believe? What about liars? Being timid (fearful) isn’t a crime worth jail time on a human level neither is lying (it can be in some situations) or not believing. So we look at these things as being trivial but God makes them a matter of eternal significance? Do you not see that in thinking this way, God is shoved into a little bitty teeny weeny box that makes his wisdom lower than that of a man? This is blasphemy towards God when man thinks this way but fortunately for most, this is done out of ignorance rather than defiance. You will definitely want to read the section on the Lake of Fire: This is a Symbol.

We are all being created in the image of God. I don’t think God looks like a person but I think what He meant by image includes things like intelligence or the ability to reason, the ability to create life, and the process of understanding the knowledge of good and evil. I want to focus on for a moment, the ability of humans to create life. Those of us who are parents know what it is like to raise children. Children don’t always do what we ask them to do. When they misbehave, we punish them. This can include physical punishment (which is becoming more socially unacceptable) or taking away privileges. As parents, we are attempting to correct behavior because we know that misbehaving has consequences especially as young people grow older. Sane parents do not punish their children for the sole purpose of inflicting pain or torment.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he CORRECTETH; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth. [Remember for God so LOVED the WORLD (the world includes everyone)… but God’s love runs out according to Christians.]

Every time we see a story in the news concerning a child being abused or mistreated; we scorn at such things. Yet Christians would have us believe that God the Creator will not only torture His children (creation) with literal fire in hell but He will do it for eternity with no hope of rescue. I’ve actually heard some professing Christians tell me that people that go to hell will be given a body that can never die made specifically to absorb the most pain possible. Who in their right mind would endorse this kind of thinking let alone believe it? If this were true, I wouldn’t even want to serve God in fact, I would hate God. But this is absolutely absurd and God will do no such thing. Most of us would never even wish this on our worst enemy let alone our own children who we create. Christians say that they will be able to see all of the people being tortured in hell I guess to point their fingers and mock the people in hell for not accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior. This is foolishness and sick at a level that I can’t even describe.

We know that our kids are going to make mistakes. So in knowing that, we know that our children can learn from their mistakes. Some learn in this life and they go on to make good choices. Some struggle and either end up in jail or dead based on some of the choices they make. In either case, we as parents will love our children regardless of any bad choice they make. We may be disappointed but we will love them all the same. Now we are corrupt evil beings subject to sin but are we to suppose that our Heavenly Father is more vile than us with the teaching of hell?

Romans 8:20-21 For the creature was made SUBJECT TO VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The Greek word “mataiotēs” is translated as vanity in Romans 8:20 and it means what is devoid of truth and appropriateness. Did you get that? This scripture says that the creature (that is – humans) were made subject to this vanity by God. So just like we know that our children will make mistakes, God knows that we will sin because we were made subject to vanity. This isn’t hard to understand if we just believe the Word of God instead of the words of men. We liken God to be this evil wrathful God that is on a vengeance to get back at humanity for not doing what He says. Did you listen to everything your parents told you when you were a child? Do your children obey all your commands? When they break your commands (yes, you want to kill them but not literally) do you seek to torture them? What does Romans 8:21 say? The creature shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption. Or human beings will be saved from being subject to sin into the glorious freedom of the children of God. This is the gospel, contrary to what you’ve been taught in church about hell and eternal punishment. God is going to reconcile all of mankind to Himself. For as in ADAM ALL DIE, even so in CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. 1 Corinthians 15:22

Now let’s look at 1 John 4:18 again;

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath TORMENT.  He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

I think this is great scripture that proves that the doctrine of hell is a doctrine of contradiction. The doctrine of hell is about fear and fear has torment. I remember back when I went to church and would hear preachers teach about going to hell if you died in your sins. I use to live in constant fear of dying and I would have trouble sleeping at night. I was trying to live right but I couldn’t control the sin in my life at the time. I found myself doing things that I didn’t want to do but I couldn’t stop. If you are in this same situation you must understand that you will not stop under your own power. God will make you hate your sin and He will give you the power to overcome living in sin with His spirit. Let’s listen to Paul and see if he can help us out;

Romans 7:22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is an absolutely loaded set of scripture that one could easily write a book about. I will sum it up the best way I can. Some of us who love God and His Word desire to be righteous (it is God that gives us this desire to begin with). However since we were made subject to vanity, we are also subject to the lusts and pulls of the flesh. God starts to renew our mind but these new spiritual thoughts and ways are in direct conflict with the desires of the carnal mind. It is a war going on inside of us at times. Have you ever felt disgusted with yourself over your own sin? In this life, you will sin but there is a difference between sinning and living in sin. I personally struggle with my thoughts every day but I no longer act on many of the sinful desires of my flesh and I thank God for giving me the strength to overcome these things in my life. It is a daily battle though and I dare not say it is easy.

1 John 4:8 says that God is love. How can God torture and sentence His creation to hell for eternity if He is love and if he created man subject to sin in the first place? Trust me; I’ve heard all of the defenses used by Christians to justify their hell doctrine but it is far from the truth. How can we be made perfect in love if one of our primary motivations for believing and trusting in Christ is the fear of going to hell? These are questions that the average Christian wouldn’t be able to answer. They will run to their pastor which would be the worst thing to do considering that it is the pastor that teaches this doctrine of devils in the first place. That my friend is how you stay deceived. I left the church years ago because I knew that the questions I had couldn’t be answered at church.

Mark 12:30 And THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THY HEART, and WITH ALL THY SOUL, and WITH ALL THY MIND, and WITH ALL THY STRENGTH: this is the first commandment. Now I’m sure many of you are familiar with this scripture. God is commanding us to love Him. Do you really think that God wants to coerce His own creation into loving Him unconditionally? How does the fear of going to hell help this dilemma? God no doubt is in a pickle here… Do you command your spouse or children to love you? Suppose I commanded my wife to love me and knowing that she doesn’t do well with commands from me, she decides not to love me. In my anger, I lock her up in a dungeon where I proceed to torture her for the rest of her life. That will teach her not to love me. Does this sound like love to you? Christians make God out to be worse than the devil.

This is 1 John 4:18 from the Concordant Literal New Testament;

Fear is not in love, but perfect love is casting out fear, for fear has CHASTENING. Now he who is fearing is not perfected in love.

The translators of the Concordant Literal New Testament use the word chastening instead of torment. Torment isn’t necessarily a bad translation; it just isn’t the best rendering of the true meaning of this scripture. Whether you prefer punish, punished, or punishment over words like chasten or chastening so be it. The most important thing that you need to know is that this punishment or chastening is for an age not for eternity. God’s punishment also has a divine purpose. What is the purpose of punishment or chastening in the first place? Do you think God’s divine purpose for punishment is meant to torture people? If you really think that then you are sick and deceived. The purpose of any punishment is to make correct or to bring about a change in behavior. The whole idea of eternal punishment or everlasting torment is of the most evil doctrine a person could ever come up with and to make this matter even worse, it is Christians that actually endorse this garbage. If you believe the evil doctrine of hell, all I can do is pray for your understanding and hope that God removes the stubbornness in your heart.

In Part 7, I will be discussing some phrases that are commonly used in connection with the false teaching of hell.

Click the link to go to Part 7: Immortal Worms, Unquenchable Fire, & the Furnace of Fire

20 thoughts on “Punishment – God’s Way

  1. Another question:

    In Rev. 21:27 – (YLT) and there may not at all enter into it any thing defiling and doing abomination, and a lie, but–those written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb.

    Christ’s apostles are undoubtedly part of God’s Elect, but do you think they sinned even while writing their letters? Whenever I sin against God, I feel awful and not worthy enough to reign with Christ, then I end up comparing myself to the apostles. Being young and surrounded by society, I feel like it’s impossible to live up to the full potential God’s Elect should be unless I take refuge in a forest.

    Would those, like me, still raise to his age-abiding judgment rather than life, despite knowing His truth (New Jerusalem, heaven/hell, judgment, Christ’s crucifixion, etc.) and accepting it as such, but still sin? I don’t fear this judgment whatsoever. It’s just that I hate to know that I couldn’t please Him enough. The crowns of gold and white robes aren’t even motivation for me to do good (I think I can word that better), but doing good just to please God is. That, in itself, should effectively keep me from sinning against Him, but I still do. And the fact that Rev. 21:27 clearly states that “any thing defiling and doing abomination, and a lie” cannot enter into the holy Jerusalem makes me feel more ashamed.

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    1. It is not possible for any human being to live completely free from sin in this life. While I do believe that the apostles of Christ had a higher calling, I do not believe for one second that they were perfectly holy like Christ in their human bodies while on earth. De’Zsa, you are at WAR but this war is a spiritual war, the spiritual man vs the carnal man. We are all born to the carnal man of sin but when we hear the word of God, it compels us to desire righteousness (this is really God working in us). When this happens in a persons life, the spiritual man (Christ) becomes alive in us but the carnal man is there as well. Paul talks about this in Romans 7:14-25 and I’m going to quote it here from the Message translation because I think the poetic style will help your understanding as opposed to the old English of the KJV.

      “I can anticipate the response that is coming: “I know that all God’s commands are spiritual, but I’m not. Isn’t this also your experience?” Yes. I’m full of myself—after all, I’ve spent a long time in sin’s prison. What I don’t understand about myself is that I decide one way, but then I act another, doing things I absolutely despise. So if I can’t be trusted to figure out what is best for myself and then do it, it becomes obvious that God’s command is necessary. But I need something more! For if I know the law but still can’t keep it, and if the power of sin within me keeps sabotaging my best intentions, I obviously need help! I realize that I don’t have what it takes. I can will it, but I can’t do it. I decide to do good, but I don’t really do it; I decide not to do bad, but then I do it anyway. My decisions, such as they are, don’t result in actions. Something has gone wrong deep within me and gets the better of me every time. It happens so regularly that it’s predictable. The moment I decide to do good, sin is there to trip me up. I truly delight in God’s commands, but it’s pretty obvious that not all of me joins in that delight. Parts of me covertly rebel, and just when I least expect it, they take charge. I’ve tried everything and nothing helps. I’m at the end of my rope. Is there no one who can do anything for me? Isn’t that the real question? The answer, thank God, is that Jesus Christ can and does. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.”

      Now does this mean we should continue to live in willful sin? Of course not, but God is working in us to transform us into the image of his son Jesus Christ and this is a process. Overcoming the world is not something that a person can do in one day but rather, a lifetime. God corrects, trains, judges, and chastises us in ways that we can’t see or understand most of the time. As we mature in Christ, we should notice spiritual growth and I’d say that the fact that you are feeling ashamed of your sin tells me that God is working in you. Remember that there was a day when you didn’t feel ashamed of your sin because you lacked knowledge and understanding of God’s ways. I’m 36 years old now and I was about your age when I started going to church but I am not the same man now as I was then. I have grown spiritually in many ways, but I still have sin and I will always have sin as does everybody. Few are willing to openly admit that though. Even if one displays an appearance of outward righteousness, the inward sins of the heart make one just as guilty because we know hate is murder and lust is adultery. I’ll leave you with one last thought because remember that God calls many but few are chosen. I will quote from the Concordant Literal New Testament because once again, the KJV is not properly translated in the following scriptures;

      Romans 8:28-30 Now we are aware that GOD IS WORKING ALL TOGETHER FOR THE GOOD OF THOSE WHO ARE LOVING GOD, who are CALLED according to the purpose that, whom He FOREKNEW, He DESIGNATES BEFOREHAND, also, TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He CALLS also, and whom He calls, these He JUSTIFIES also; now whom He justifies, these He GLORIFIES also.

      God calls us to love Him according to His will that He purposed before you were born to be justified and glorified in Christ. Stay faithful and God will never forsake you…

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  2. “The purpose of any punishment is to make correct or to bring about a change in behavior.”-The reason for the change in behavior is also important. Does someone change their behavior out of love and respect, or fear of being punished again, for fear of pain?

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  3. I know that there is nothing good in me. He took me out of the horrible pit and the miry clay that is for sure. I have also learnt of His Almighty power in small things and big. All this agrees with my thought of God because I am unable to think of the Almighty to be on the same level of thoughts as a human. Why would God be vindictive when there is NOTHING I can give to him or that He needs anything from me? The Bible says He loved us before we ever loved Him and He gave Christ for our redemption. I always wondered ‘how can a good God burn people in hell for eternity?’ sounds absurd! My heart could never agree with it because God is Holy!

    I just feel comforted reading your articles. Because even though He can chastise us for our wrong doing, in God there is forgiveness and that is why we fear Him. We cannot love Him as He loves us. God punishes with justice and mercy. His Word stands forever!

    Praise and Glory to God forever!

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  4. I agree with the belief that hell is non biblical. I’ve done extensive studies on this subject and it’s not hebraic.
    Even though it’s barbaric we need to make sure whether or not it’s scriptural and it’s not.
    Now, the only problem I have is your position on universalism. Universalism is not hebraic. The idea of God pulling a big mulligan and putting the chest pieces back on the board for a do over removes the idea of free will, the need for the bible, the relevancy of the bible, jesus, morality, or any other fundamental pillar or human reality. It would make God detached like a deist. There would be no need for an 1800 page book talking about behavior, decisions, and choices.
    There must be penalty for those that are considered wicked by Yahweh’s definition or the foundational concept of reality would be a mirage. Choices have consequences. If the ultimate judge doesn’t have different outcomes for righteous and unrighteous then rape and non rape would create the same outcome. Child molesters, murders, anyone who destroys this planet for pleasure and self servitude would get the same reward as those that try to preserve and protect it. Nothing of the sort exists in reality.
    There must be reward and punishment, but turning punishment into eternal physical torment for all of time is extreme.

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    1. I always desire restorative justice. If I had a daughter and were she raped, would I rather have the rapist killed, or have the rapist be forced to un-rape my daughter? Here on earth that is impossible, but with God, everything is possible.
      If I were to recover my ability to think rationally after finding out about it, I would prefer the latter. Killing the rapist will not un-rape my daughter. The reason we kill a rapist on earth is to prevent the act being repeated on top of desire for revenge.

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  5. Dude ……. So are you saying that people who never got saved do not go to hell ? Or perhaps people who worship Satan would still be pardoned and allowed to exist in Heaven forever ? If I read this rigjt it’s your opinion that not one person God created goes to hell , no matter how evil of a life they lead ? So Adolf Hitler who killed millions of Jews will be in heaven ? Men who bang innocent little Kids in the booty will be in heaven too ? I’m just curious after reading what you wrote…… So no hell for nobody right ? Just asking

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    1. Jason, your comment is littered with many assumptions that are supported by the traditions of Christianity that I do not adhere to;

      1) Getting “saved” according to the rituals of Christianity is not how God saves anyone.

      2) Heaven is not a literal place with streets of gold and babies flying around playing harps. Nobody goes to a “heaven” when they die and Jesus himself said that no man has ascended up to heaven yet millions of Christians believe otherwise.

      3) Everyone is evil and under the right circumstances (parenting or lack thereof, the environment, and possibly even genetic precursors), you and I would be just as capable of being the most vile of any person.

      4) There is nothing closer to Satan worship than belief in hell. The Israelites sacrificed their own children to the pagan god Molech by making them pass through fire. How many Christians sacrifice their brothers and sisters of humanity to be cast into hellfire to the god of Christianity? God called this practice of being sacrificed by fire to be an abomination. Ironically enough, I have never been threatened with hell or doomed to hell by a Satan worshiper. That honor is reserved for Christians only.

      5) There is a huge fallacy in the basic Christian logic of the so called process of getting saved. Getting saved by repeating a seconds long prayer has never saved anyone. Salvation is a process and no one is technically saved (past tense). Humanity is in the process of being saved because we still get sick, we go through trials and tribulations, and we still have to die. If salvation already occurred then all of that would be avoided.

      A lot of people use the Hitler argument to justify hell as if even Hitler could justify such an absurd punishment. Do you not realize that Adolf Hitler could’ve surrendered and given his life to Christ (according to Christianity) and that alone would’ve warranted his entrance into Christianity’s so called heaven at his death? Your reference to little kids being sodomized was unnecessary because I understood the point you was trying to make but even with that said, my argument remains applicable. If such an offender later gave his life to Christ (according to Christianity) they would go to heaven at death which would leave you with the same set of circumstances from your original inquiry… a person guilty of egregious crimes somehow getting into “heaven”. Do you think that is justice? You do not conquer evil with evil because in that scenario, you only end up with more evil. There is a thing called rehabilitation and under God’s judgments, God is capable, able, and willing to right all wrongs and judge all evil but God’s judgment is much different than Christianity’s judgment. God’s judgment is about correction and not necessarily causing people more pain. It is certainly true that going through judgment can be painful but the goal is to come out on the other side of judgment corrected having learned to not do the things that are wrong or evil. Just because there is no hell doesn’t mean that God will not punish evil but then again, what is the point of punishment if a person is never given an opportunity to learn from it? If my child misbehaves I punish then reasonably I do not torture them for the rest of their life. The purpose of my punishment is to teach a more desirable behavior thus producing desirable character. Even jails and prisons are called “correctional facilities” because the goal is to correct. There is nothing righteous about being barbecued alive in a body that can never die and the concept is actually illogical and unscientific. Pain is associated with mortality therefore making it impossible for an immortal being to suffer pain. If a person cannot die then what can hurt it? Death is arguably the greatest fear among all humanity and we fear death because it is possible. Death is often accompanied with pain and humans tend to want to avoid experiencing pain. Burning in hell for all eternity makes no sense not even scripturally. The wages of sin is death not eternal life in hell. You seem to be forgetting a very fundamental principle that Christ taught and that is to forgive those who sin against us. I am all for the judgment of evil but not at the expense of being evil. Do I know what Adolf Hitler’s punishment would be? No, I don’t but ironically enough, Hitler let his victims die. The so called god of Christianity that many “worship” will not let a single occupant of hell die… Nope, dying would be too righteous for Christianity’s god seeing that he will approve and secure such a government of torture where people will be burned alive in hell forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever until there are no more evers which is never. The god of Christianity is far more evil than Hitler. Do you not see the contradictions in some of Christianity’s dogmas? Hell has always existed as a mechanism of fear for which the powerful leaders of organized religion can control their masses and rake in profits (I mean tithes) so they build massive cathedrals and live like kings. I do realize that not all Christian pastors have achieved such a status, but I’m certain that most have similar aspirations. I understand how difficult it is to understand how there can be no hell especially with how powerful religious indoctrination is but hell might be the greatest hoax of all time and millions of Christians believe it without any reservations.

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      1. “no man has ascended up to heaven” that’s because they must be taken there, as none has the power to ascend except Jesus. Elijah and Enoch were taken away, and so were Moses’ and Mary’s bodies, and possibly John of Patmos.

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      2. That’s just a play on words Elijah was never taken to God’s spiritual “heaven” he was simply transported through a whirlwind in the sky (heaven) and landed at another unknown location on earth. The Hebrew word “šāmayim” is translated as the English word heaven 398 times but this word is also used to describe the air in which birds fly. There are physical heavens and then there are spiritual heavens. In 2 Chronicles 21:12, Jehoram receives a letter from Elijah and I seriously doubt that Elijah wrote him a letter from God’s spiritual heaven. Hebrews 11:5 says that Enoch was translated which essentially means to be transferred or carried over and not that he was literally taken away to God’s heaven. Theses ideas are based on Christian fantasy. Hebrews 9:2 says, it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so are you suggesting that Enoch – a man somehow avoided death? If you read the entire chapter of Hebrews 11, there is a reference to Enoch and several other prophets but what do we read in Hebrews 11:13? “These ALL DIED in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth”. I think going to God’s literal heaven would be considered receiving the promises but Enoch never ascended or was taken away to God’s heaven. I can only assume that your implication that Moses was taken away comes from the transfiguration spoken of in Matthew 17 but Jesus clearly tells them it is a VISION in verse 9. Visions are like dreams occurring in the mind and not in reality. The Catholic dogma regarding the assumption of Mary is exactly that, Catholic dogma. We read in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God and it is fallacy to assume that anyone could achieve spiritual glory before the resurrection. John of Patmos wrote the book of Revelation while in the “spirit” and not from God’s heaven.

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  6. Mr Randolph
    I hear what you are saying. What about the great flood that GOD used to destroy mankind except for Noah and his family. Was not GOD’s judgment final at that time? There does not seem to be a point to resurrect those people unto another Judgement after the thousand year reign. I am not saying that generation is burning in hell, but that everyone at that time perished? Would not being separated from GOD eternally be judgement enough? This is but one example of GOD’s judgement on mankind that was recorded in the Bible. I know by this statement this opens me up to a belief of annihilation, but I am having some difficulty with the idea of having another Judgement that brings about “rehabilitation” unto righteousness if I am understanding your explanations about GOD’s willingness or plan to do so. I also believe that there is no eternal hell fire. I guess I thought the Bible is about more about obtaining everlasting life or suffer the wages of sin unto death(perish). I have read your thoughts about free will. How does this differ from having a choice. I am enjoying the reading of your papers which closely related to my thinking. Just trying to glean as much of the truth as possible.

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    1. The flood was an example of God’s “wrath” on mankind not judgment and yes Noah and his family were spared from the flood but Noah still eventually died (Genesis 9:29). Understand that when we study the bible and it talks about mankind being destroyed or the destruction of man, it is always pointing to death.

      Genesis 6:17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to DESTROY from under heaven “all flesh” in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth SHALL DIE.

      Wrath and judgment are not the same thing. The wages of sin is death. Death is the punishment for sin and that is how God decided to pour out His wrath toward sin but Jesus died and paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world including the people that died in the flood. If Jesus died for their sins (keeping in mind that these were people that lived before Christ was born in the flesh), why would they still be subject to the death penalty? The only way that death can be swallowed up in victory as it is decreed in Isaiah 25:8 when God says He will swallow up death in victory…

      How can God swallow up death in victory if there are multitudes of people still locked in death? In Revelation 1:18 we read that Jesus has the KEYS of Hades and death but he doesn’t have a literal key, this is figurative language. Jesus is going to give immortality to all of humanity in their proper timing.

      1 Corinthians 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, but every man in his own order…

      If the people who died in the flood are never made alive in Christ then Christ is not the Savior of the world, he would be the failure of the world. Remember that the all in Christ is being contrasted with the all in Adam. We all die “in Adam” and there is no disputing that there was nothing you or I had to do to die in Adam however, when it comes to be made alive “in Christ”, Christianity wants to copyright being made alive in Christ suggesting that one must accept Christ with their own free will to be made alive in Christ. This is nonsense. Jesus will put down all rule, authority, and power. He will defeat death and turn over the kingdom to the Father so that the Father can be ALL IN ALL!

      The resurrection to judgment beings after thousand year reign so the people that died in the flood will be resurrected during that time to be judged in righteousness. When a person dies they are dead and they will stay dead until their resurrection order is called. So yes the people of the flood did perish at that time but judgment comes after death.

      Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

      The people of the flood are still sleeping in the dust of the earth awaiting the resurrection to judgment but remember, judgment is a good thing. It is through judgment that God brings about repentance and the instruction in righteousness in the resurrection to judgment.

      Isaiah 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

      You ask, “Would not being separated from GOD eternally be judgement enough?” I suppose that’s a fair enough question but under who’s authority or conditions do you ask that question? Eternal separation from God a is common fundamental dogma of Christianity but there is no such thing as eternal separation from God.

      Psalm 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

      Most popular bible translations translate Sheol as hell but the New American Standard Bible chose to leave it untranslated due to all of the disagreement with the interpretation of that seemingly ambiguous word. Sheol means grave but not a literal grave it is the place of nothingness. The best way that I have come to explain the meaning of Sheol and Hades (which are both the same thing) is the place you existed before you were born. Well, you didn’t exist before you was born so when we die we return to the place of being nonexistent. Although we die and in that very day our thoughts perish, God remembers us. There is no way to be eternally separated from an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent God and even David knew that when he wrote Psalm 139:8.

      Remember that you have to understand the difference between God’s wrath and God’s judgment. They both serve different purposes but even in God’s wrath, God would never sentence any of His creation being made in His image to eternal death or eternal suffering. God has a purpose for man and it includes understanding and having an experience of good and evil.

      There is not ANOTHER judgment that brings about “rehabilitation” unto righteousness, there is only one resurrection to judgment. We know that there is a resurrection to life and a resurrection to judgment because Christ has told us in (John 5:28-29). There will be a resurrection of the dead both of the just and the unjust (Acts 24:15). Who do you believe will rise in the resurrection to judgment or who do you think is included in the unjust?

      The bible does talk about obtaining everlasting life but the phrase “everlasting life” is actually not scripture. Just because something is written in the bible doesn’t make it scripture and you need to be able to discern the difference. The Hebrew “owlam” and the Greek word “aionios” does not mean eternal or everlasting it means age-abiding. Believers are promised “age-abiding” life and this is what occurs in the resurrection to life. God’s chosen elect will reign with Christ in a special age that the rest of the world doesn’t get to participate in. When that age comes to and end, the first resurrection participants will still continue to live because they were made immortal in their resurrection. We all suffer the wages of sin unto death but Jesus has conquered death for us all. If Jesus died for the sins of the world which you believe to be annihilation, wouldn’t that subject Christ to eternal death? The mystery of God is like a puzzle and we have to put the pieces together in the right places to see the full picture.

      I have been planning to write a paper about free will but I want to make sure that I have done enough research and study before publishing one. Being able to choose has nothing to do with free will. We make choices all the time but everyone chooses based on whatever is the most powerful motivator in their hearts. Free will is an illusion. We like what we like but we don’t always get to choose what we like because there is another force that drives us. It is the beast of the flesh – the carnal man that lives inside of all of us that drives us to chasing the pulls and desires of the flesh. This is how it is possible for us to do things things we hate because the mind (in spirit) seeks one thing while the flesh seeks another. Our life is a collective series of prior causes and many of them we don’t even control.

      I am glad that are enjoying my papers. I hope I have helped open your mind to understanding God’s plan to reconcile all humanity to Himself!

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      1. I have a question, what is the original of the word Wrath, is it simply anger or is there more to it?

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  7. I’m a believer, but very often, I secretly see God as a charming psychopath. Gives us Stockholm syndrome by threatening us with hell, gaslights us with how fleshly and sinful we are despite him making us born that way, and demands us praise him for (as impressed as I am for western Christianity the way they talk about Jesus’ holiness) putting on a human suit, spending 30 years carving quarry rocks, pretend to suffer for nine hours, take a break in heaven for another 39 from his human suit, give some speeches and them get the hell out of here.
    Then give powers to his followers, let them write a book about it, die, give no powers to anyone else. and then ghost us for 1900 years.
    And I still believe it. Though inwardly I deny it for how lifess my spiritual life is.

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    1. God doesn’t threaten anyone with hell that is the work of Christianity’s deceived clergy. Don’t assume that just because Christianity teaches or believes something that it had to come from God. What makes you think that Christ “pretended” to suffer? I can understand being frustrated about certain things pertaining to God but that’s not a reason to be crass.

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      1. There is no psychological aspect to a pre-planned and fully measured suffering that has an objective and certain-to-be-fulfilled purpose. It’s the same suffering that is suffered from an intense workout.

        It isn’t remotely like the horrible uncertainty of ones fate when you’re some terrified agnostic in an East-Asian POW camp.

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  8. That’s exactly what I mean. Jesus suffered for 9~12 hours of immense pain and humiliation, but foresaw all of it. The idea that such thing would atone for eternity of inescapable suffering (i.e. can’t stop worshipping the beast) is taught everywhere. That kind of blasphemy becoming so prevalent makes me question the HS’s capabilities and presence in this world.
    If such promise of the HS’s guidance is broken, expired, or severely restricted, I have every right to be crass about God’s desire for our good, and the atonement’s effect.

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