Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Let me first state that I have never asked even a penny for ‘my religion’, and I don’t intend to start. My belief therefore in a literal hell or a literal lake of fire is not at all for the purpose for controlling anyone; it is derived solely from my own interpretation of the bible, of which I am well read for many years (and yes, your own interpretation is simply that, an interpretation that I have been aware of for years and have sadly discounted).
You are one of billions of professing Christians all over the world and I certainly do not rest all of Christianity’s heresies and atrocities squarely on you. I never stated that you individually was guilty of taking money from people or even trying to control people. I made it clear that it is “Christianity” as a religious system that does those things but you are still a part of that evil corrupt religious system whether you understand that or not. What you believe is literally consistent with what fundamental Christianity is all about however, if we are allowed to interpret the bible anyway we see fit then we leave room to create essentially any idea or doctrine that is consistent with what we like or what we have been influenced to believe. 2 Peter 1:20 tells us plainly that no prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation. Being well read in the bible essentially means nothing if you do not have spiritual understanding and it is clear that you do not seeing that you have embraced not only one of the most evil carnal doctrines ever invented, it is the epitome of blasphemy against the nature and character of God. As long as you believe that heresy you will never even come close to comprehending the love of God and how the salvation of all is the only reality that could ever give God all the glory. What you choose to discount in terms of what is the right interpretation or not is not a consequence for God. Truth is truth whether people believe it or not…
Don’t get me wrong; as a fellow sinner needing grace, I wish you were right. I don’t want anyone (including me) to go to eternal torture, even my very worst enemy. But I am very aware that there is a real need for justice, and that real justice happens at the cross. There are just too many scriptures pointing to the fact that the only way anyone can be saved from the SECOND death is via the blood of the Lamb, and that denial of the cross of Jesus is actually a ‘blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ that can never be forgiven (yes, I know the context Jesus speaks of this sin is about the Pharisees calling black white and white black, but it still stands).
I think it is sad that you hide behind this phony desire of not wanting people to go to an eternal hell but then you turn around and provide the necessary justification, a false justification I might add, to damn billions of people to your satanic torture chamber. You claim that there is a real need for justice and that happens at the cross but you speak as if man could ever be a real enemy to God. What does God “need” from man? We are first and foremost God’s creation and you liken the Father and Creator of the Universe to that of an insecure abusive earthly parent. Humans didn’t ask God to be created any more that children can ask their parents to be born. Earthly parents are responsible for their children but God isn’t responsible for His creation? What kind of logic is that? Do you even know what “justice” means? Here are just a few definitions of the word justice; just behavior or treatment, the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals, and fairness in the way people are dealt with. So according to your logic, you think the majority of humans being tortured in fire for all eternity is just behavior or treatment? Billions of people’s parents and grandparent being barbecued alive in a body that can never die or burn up is God’s FAIR way to deal with sinners? Are you kidding me? Any mind that could even conceive of such an idea is beyond insanity and that is why it is impossible for a mind so polluted with such carnal minded perversions to ever embrace the truth. I agree that salvation comes through belief in Jesus Christ and His sacrifice made at the cross but what you lack in your explanation is HOW a person comes to that conclusion. Does a person just decide one day that they are just going to do right and serve the Lord? The scriptures do not support that idea… Romans 3:11 tells that there is NO ONE that seeks after God. So how does one come to seek after God? I am well aware of the total UNSCRIPTURAL teaching that man has free will but I will not get into that now because it will take too long for me to explain it. You’d probably denounce it anyway since you endorse so many other Christian lies but the point that I want to make is that all is of God and it is God that must first start a work in a person’s life that causes them to seek God. The Apostle Paul only became who he was after he was CALLED by the Lord and had it not been for that calling, Paul would have still been the Saul who persecuted Christians. Before a person can even come to Christ, God the Father must first DRAW that person to Christ and how ironic it is that Jesus proclaims that if he is lifted up from the earth, he will DRAW “all mankind” to himself. Does he lie or will he draw all mankind to himself in vain? How can we even suppose such a thing when Jesus Christ has been given ALL AUTHORITY in heaven and in earth? Who or what is more powerful as to thwart Christ from accomplishing any of things he says he will do if he really has all authority? Do you not realize that the Jews that had Christ crucified did NOT believe on Christ yet the Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 11:26 that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved… How do you even begin to rationalize any of the heresies you believe with all of these truths? There is certainly more work for God to do but you simply do not want God to do it or you are just too blind to accept what is blatantly obvious. Before a person can even come close to believing and accepting anything of God, God must first draw the person, give the person the GIFT of faith, and then continually work in that person to do God’s work and all of this is backed by the scriptures.
Furthermore, your claim that the denial of the cross of Jesus is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is just a pitiful lie as there is NO scriptural basis for that claim whatsoever. You cannot just add to or change the word of God to suit your faulty interpretations. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit involves evil speaking of God’s Spirit or associating the work and power of God with that which is evil. I believe your belief in an eternal hell qualifies you to be guilty of this offense even though you don’t even know it. The Pharisees didn’t know they committed the offense nor did they care. I suspect that you will just brush me off the same way… There is NO evil greater than the evil of eternal torture in fire yet you and virtually all Christians attribute this grave evil to the work of God. That’s blasphemy of the Spirit of God and according to you, it can NEVER be forgiven… Well, that’s half true because you are certainly guilty of this offense but it can and will be forgiven. The word NEVER does not belong in this scripture and there are literally dozens of translations that do not include the word “never” in Matthew 12:31. If you don’t believe me go to Bible Gateway and check for yourself. The Greek word in question here is the Greek participle “ou” and this word is properly translated as the word “NOT” instead of “never”.
Matthew 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall “NOT” be forgiven.
So if blasphemy of the Spirit of God will NOT be forgiven, does that mean that anybody that is guilty of this offense is cosigned to the sacred torture chamber of Christianity? I think not and for someone critical of “cherry picking” you sure failed to consider Christ’s entire thought when it comes to this subject of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the so called “unpardonable sin”. If we read in the very next verse, Christ plainly concludes that this offense will NOT be forgiven in this age or in the age to come. Ages are periods of time with beginnings and endings. All ages have a beginning and all ages have and ending. So if I punish my son for lying and I say, you will “NOT” play your XBOX this week or the week after how silly would it be for my son to think I meant that he could NEVER play his XBOX? This is silliness but this is the kind of logic you support. It is clear that my son’s punishment lasts for only two weeks likewise, the punishment for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will only last for two ages. In the subsequent age, in the age of judgment, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will be forgiven. Imagine that, forgiveness will take place in the judgment…
So what if condemnation/damnation are both translated as judgement? The point still stands. Judgement will take place, and it doesn’t look good for anyone who doesn’t know Jesus for themselves. People will be judged on whether they KNOW Christ, whether they have ‘tasted the heavenly gift’. If they do not know or if they have not tasted, then they will perish. its that simple, and there are many scriptures to show this (but somehow I think, you are already aware of them yet must have a different interpretation).
In regards to judgment, damnation and condemnation are not synonyms for judgment and I never stated that judgment wouldn’t take place but like I stated previously, judgment is a GOOD THING. The purpose of judgment is correction and that is why prisons are referred to as “correctional facilities”. Do you not even realize that God causes His own chosen people to go through judgment (1 Peter 4:17)? Christians are the only people I know that liken the judgment of God to something similar to Hitler’s Auschwitz. There are literally millions of people that have lived and died never even having hear about a Christ yet we are told that there is only ONE name under heaven by which men can be saved. There are equally millions of other people that were and are born into non-Christian anti-Jesus cultures so what is their fate? Are they doomed to the eternal torments of your pagan hell? How will God judge North Koreans on whether they know Christ or not? It is easy for you in your state of hyped up religious self-righteousness to cast so much gloom on the world since you are convinced that you have avoided the fate you assign to those who haven’t so called “tasted the heavenly gift”. Coming from my perspective, you don’t even realize that you are qualified even more for your own damnation for you do not KNOW Christ, you know “Christianity”, which is a religion of men. God is not a Christian and neither is Jesus…
Furthermore, being perished is not a permanent state for even the righteous perish (Isaiah 57:1). My father died in 2008 and he is presently in the state of being “perished”… He has been in that state for almost a decade but did you somehow miss all of the scriptures that speak of a FUTURE resurrection? Maybe you need to do a refresher on 1 Corinthians 15. It is amazing to me how easy it is for you to base your beliefs on partial truths failing to fully investigate a subject in it’s entirety. Once you believe your belief has been validated, there is no need for you to continue any further study regardless if what you believe or think is incomplete.
Universalism is attractive because there is no real danger in sinning in the long run. Even the most wicked of people will eventually find grace. People (in your eyes) are simply ‘refined’ or ‘purified’ by the fire, and will not perish (even though there are many scriptures that say they WILL perish).
Wow, just wow… So God’s plan is something that should be “unattractive”? Since when do people look for something that is “unattractive” in any other aspect of life? You are Christians are absolutely unbelievable… The salvation of all is attractive because it illustrates that we have a Creator that is truly a God of love that stretches across the planet for all sinners. The salvation of all is attractive because it provides an idea of hope in which righteousness prevails over evil. We are all sinners and it matters little how good or righteous you think you are. The scriptures state that there is NO ONE that is good. Are you included in the NO ONE? If NO ONE is good, then every one is deeply and inherently wicked and under the right circumstances, every single human being that has ever lived is capable of grave evil. You grossly underestimate the need for God to intervene in the lives of people for them to do anything that could ever be accounted as righteousness to God. And by the way, who elected you as the international representative of distributing God’s grace to the inhabitants of the world? You denounce the idea of the salvation for all even for the most wicked because you think it is too gracious of God not to mention that you benefit from that same graciousness. What a hypocrite you are… You don’t own God’s grace and you certainly have no right to limit God’s grave for those that God hasn’t drawn to Christ in this present age. I have never even implied that God’s refining and purifying judgment will be a simple task. Going through God’s judgment will be the most difficult thing that any person will ever have to do PERIOD. Does that make you happy? Finally something a little scary or something to be afraid of. Again, I NEVER stated that people don’t perish. To perish means to die in case you didn’t know that and everyone at some point will perish at their death. Perishing has NOTHING to do with going to your godless hell. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not “willing” that any should perish but I guess God is too weak to prevent His own creation from perishing (permanently). Christians proclaim God’s “will” be done yet they don’t even believe that God’s “will” will actually be done. Judgment occurs after people perish at death in the resurrection. This is when God judges, corrects, and makes things right… You simply have NO CLUE when it comes to understanding how God uses good and evil in the instruction of learning righteousness for there is no way to determine what is good without any knowledge or understanding of what is evil.
Romans 9:17-23 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
Did Pharaoh have the ability to reject God when God chose to raise him up for that particular purpose? No
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Imagine that… God actually HARDENS people and do you suppose that a person that God has hardened can accept or ever KNOW CHRIST?
One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
That’s a good question… Who is able to resist GOD’s will? This interrogative question implies a negative response and we should know by the context that this is implying that there is NO ONE that is able to resist God’s will however, according to you and the heresies of Christianity that you love so much, billions of people are able to resist God’s will. Unbelievable…
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
If you understand the analogy with the potter and clay and its relationship to God and humanity, then it should not be that difficult to interpret that God specifically made some people who He had mercy on to be “good” while others He chose to harden to be “evil”.
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
Prepared for destruction? Isn’t that like perishing? God “prepared” some people to perish… Yes and God also prepared others to partake in His glory but there is a more glorious ending to God’s masterpiece and not some end of the world evil doomsday hogwash you believe.
Believe me, in many ways I honestly wish this was true, and part of me still hopes i’m desperately wrong about the judgement. But as a natural pessimist, I always go for the worst case scenario, in the happy event that in the end it’s not as bad as I originally thought. A bit of shamefaced humiliation on judgement day because I was wrong about it all, I can handle… we all laugh about it together about how sill I was, and we then go into eternal bliss. BUT, if it turns out that YOU are wrong, then there are DRASTIC consequences for it. You have preached ‘another gospel’, and you will also be cursed with the rest of them.
Okay, so you decide to believe the doctrine that glorifies evil and makes Satan out to be more triumphant that the real and actual Savior of the world only to appease your own pessimism? What kind of a rationale is that? Your logic is not only WRONG it is down right foolish… I have heard MANY Christians use this terrible defense as a way to downplay the belief in the salvation of all not having the slightest clue as to what they are even talking about. For any professing Christian, I would imagine that being an integral part of God’s administration in the new heaven and earth would be something pretty important to them wouldn’t agree? What about reigning with Christ in the Kingdom of God for 1,000 years… You think that would be pretty important? Well that is what you risk losing if you remain connected in any way to Mystery Babylon. A little shamefaced humiliation on judgment day? No, you will rise in the resurrection to judgment realizing that you missed out on all the promises God has proclaimed to those who BELIEVE in the name of Christ, a NAME God proclaims to be the Savior of the Whole World. You don’t even believe that simple truth nor does virtually all of Christianity. So I think the consequences are a bit more DRASTIC for you than you think. Christianity preaches another gospel and you believe their version so the curse belongs to you.
Yes, I agree…salvation is from death… the second death only. Spiritual death. This is shown by the fact that since the cross, EVERYONE has still died the first death. Salvation doesn’t protect you from the first death, and we must all still pass through it. It can however save you from the second, spiritual death… should you place your trust in the Son of God and know Him personally for yourself.
First death, second death… Salvation is from DEATH period! The majority of the human race will experience the second death and although it will hurt, they will not perish into some pagan hell for all eternity. The second death is the death of DEATH and the destruction of anything that causes death i.e. our sinful natures… In this first life, we die a physical death. Those who experience the second death after the resurrection do not experience another physical death but rather the total death of their evil carnal selves. This transformative process will be difficult for a lot of people kind of like rehab is to a drug addict and there will be much loss and suffering. But the final outcome of this process will be the production of billions of righteous sons and daughters to be welcomed into the family of God … God isn’t going to torture not one single member of anybody’s earthly family. Death is likened as an enemy, an enemy that is finally destroyed when Christ gives immortality to all. If anyone is eternally locked in the state of death or is suffering the eternal consequences of sin, death still has power and death as an enemy of Christ will stand victorious. That is rank heresy… Christ puts all His enemies under His feet…
If your ‘gospel’ is right, and is the same one the apostles and disciples preached, why were they so horribly and mercilessly murdered for their faiths? What is so offensive about what you preach? Why would people take umbridge with it? Where is the need to turn from wickedness, if all will be saved? You cherry pick scriptures and leave gaping holes, that I could easily attack, and shall do if you want the scriptures to back it up. It also doesnt explain why SO MANY people (including myself) have had ‘hell experiences’.
Why was Christ crucified? What was so offensive about what he preached? If Christ was murdered, why is so difficult to see why some of his followers met the same fate? Religious people hated Christ because Christ exposed them for their evil. I find it interesting that religious people even today continue to despise the same message that Christ brought to the world, a message of salvation and reconciliation for all peoples. You ask why would people take umbrage with what I preach? My answer… the same way you do. You have been force fed a bunch of religious garbage that has blinded you to God’s truth. Modern day Christians possess the same evil Pharisaical spirit as those same religious hypocrites back in the time of Christ all hidden under the surface of self-righteousness. When have I ever even alluded to the idea that repentance and judgment wasn’t necessary for salvation? I don’t believe or support the idea that all will be saved “anyway”… ALL will be saved GOD’S WAY. You accuse me of cherry picking scriptures and leaving gaping holes as if I’m supposed to quote the entire bible to explain one thought but then you turn around and do the same thing even at a much higher level of consequence. Attacking the word of God is something Christians have been doing for centuries so there is nothing new there. I think it’s actually kind of funny that people dream up these bogus experiences of hell and then somehow think it has anything to do with reality. There is only two options here; either they are lying or they are just completely delusional. It would be complete and utter nonsense for me to claim to have had a “Neverland experience” and expect anyone to believe it. The only reason why you think you have a bit more ground to stand on with this gobbledygook is that there are so many other people that either lie or are equally delusional. It is not a secret that GOD sends “strong delusion” so that people will believe a lie and He also gives the devil authority to deceive the whole world. The whole world? Who is left out of the whole world? I do not mean to mock you but I will not allow you or anyone else to subject me to such nonsense when it clearly contradicts scripture and even science. Near death experiences are not real and this has been proven by science. If the brain is still processing data, you are not dead. Clinical death and biological death are not the same. A person can be brought back to life from clinical death but not biological death. That is a scientific fact… So whatever your mind creates from the hundreds of thousands of ideas and images you’ve downloaded into your memory is your own personal imagination. This hell experience business is just another clever scheme of the devil in his campaign to keep the world lost in deception. And lastly, what I believe is NOT my gospel… God has revealed His gospel to me and He has given me the wisdom, knowledge, faith, and understanding to believe it.
I would also like to know why it is fair in your mind for the devil and his angels to suffer eternally in agonising torment for their rebellion, but that human beings who rebel and spit on the cross of Christ, even after it was graciously offered to them for free, will still find salvation. Where is the justice in that?
I do not believe that the devil and his messengers are going to suffer “eternally” in agonizing torment and don’t know why you assumed that I did. I also do not believe that they “rebelled” against God. Those are both carnal minded interpretations of the church that I do not endorse. I believe that God will make things right through whatever means is necessary for ALL of His creation and yes God created the devil. There is NO creature in all of God’s creation that can rebel against God without God first allowing it to be so. The majority of people that I know that metaphorically “spit on the cross of Christ” are people like you… i.e. Christians. Christians are the only people on the planet that do not believe that Christ’s death on the cross was a “sufficient” atonement for the sins of the world even though it pleased God, it didn’t please Christians. Your so called “gracious offer” is typically backed by the threat of eternal torture in hell as if that could ever be considered to be “free” with such an investment in people’s fear. And you have some gall to mention justice to me? What you seek sir, is revenge not justice but justice is not about getting even it is about setting things right. Do earthly parents torture their children for rebelling against them? Not any loving rationale parent that I know… So why it it that you assign such an evil depraved character trait to the “perfect” God of all the earth? Since when is revenge listed as one of the fruits of the Spirit as it is illustrated for us in Galatians 5:22-23? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness humility, and self-control? Where is revenge? You seem to have a problem with God forgiving others while you have no problem with Him forgiving you. Let’s say someone wronged you… As followers of Christ are we admonished to forgive them or are we to seek “justice” as you call it? God doesn’t operate under the same carnal ways of selfish, hateful, revenge seeking humans. Also, salvation isn’t something to be found… the salvation for all is the will of God. Who are you to question God’s perfect will?
Listen, I’m not being contentious. I genuinely want the truth, hopefully like you do. Hell makes complete sense to me, and the scriptures coincide with my understanding of it, even cementing it. Do I like it? No. But that’s because I’m also guilty in God’s eyes, and worthy of the same punishment. My only hope is in the cross, where I come with fear and trembling. Like anyone. But I can fully understand that if someone rejects the cross, they must pay for their own sins, which is an eternal blasphemy worthy of the eternal wrath of the Father. Does it make Him ‘unloving’? Of course not! The gift of grace was there all along. People simply prefer darkness to light, the devil to God, and therefore will suffer the same fate as their master. To my mind, it is just, righteous and fair for it to be this way. The scandal is unmerited grace on sinners like me… not the other way around.
I don’t think you are being contentious… I think you are being exactly like the hundreds of other deceived Christians that I’ve spoken to that repeat and parrot the same old lies that have been perpetuated throughout Christianity for centuries. You are not special nor are you an anomaly. There are probably hundreds of millions of over Christians that have come and gone that think just like you do. You say you want the truth but I doubt that very much because every truth that I have presented so far you have already denounced. You will continually find a way to justify whatever it is you believe no matter if it means believing a damnable lie, changing the word of God, making Christ out to be a liar, or submitting to the carnal minded interpretations of the church. How can you even come to the light of the truth seeing that you have embraced so many lies?