Who is Satan? What is the devil? In the world of the Christian church, Satan or the devil is God’s greatest adversary. God is in the corner of good and Satan is in the corner of bad. At the present time, God and Satan are duking it out in the spiritual realm. Who is going to win this ultimate battle between God and Satan? Christians will tell you that God is going to win and Satan will be defeated. The problem with this understanding is that when we think like this, we kind of put Satan on the same level as God. Also, superstition and myths have confused many people about whom or what the devil really is. I can tell you with 100% conviction that he isn’t red with pointy ears, a long tail, and a pitchfork. He is also not the ruler of the pagan hell of Christianity. Satan is and has always been a created creature by God. Many people think that Satan was Lucifer an archangel in heaven that supposedly sinned and was kicked out of heaven. This is just another Christian fable created from the deceived minds of men. This is the truth according to scripture;
Genesis 3:1 Now THE SERPENT was more subtil than any beast of the field WHICH THE LORD GOD HAD MADE… Now contrary to popular belief, Satan is actually on God’s side but people don’t understand this truth. Satan was purposefully created to be the “Adversary” which is what the name Satan means in Hebrew. This scripture tells us that God made the serpent. The devil is characterized as the serpent. The devil isn’t a literal earthly serpent and I hope nobody is that naïve to think that this is what God meant. Serpents are sneaky slithery deceptive little creatures. This is the reason why the devil is called a serpent; because of the characteristics and attributes of a real serpent. Satan is a spiritual serpent. For those that think that Satan turned himself in to being evil need to think about this scripture;
Genesis 1:31 And GOD SAW EVERY THING THAT HE HAD MADE, and, behold, IT WAS VERY GOOD. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Did it say that God saw some of the things he made or all but one of the things he made? No, it doesn’t say that at all. We know that God made the serpent and Genesis 1:31 tells us that EVERYTHING that God made was VERY GOOD…. Please let that sink in for a minute.
Do you think that Satan was a bad creation on God’s part? If that’s true, wouldn’t that make God a failure? If a person created something and it went wrong, would we not blame the person for the mistake? This is so simple when we actually think about the things that people say and teach. Man creates something and it is man that is held responsible for its success of failure. God creates something and He isn’t held responsible for its success or failure. This kind of thinking is ridiculous. So why did God create Satan (the serpent) to begin with? Let’s look here;
Genesis 2:17 But of the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Notice that this tree contains the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, not just evil. People think that Adam and Eve were created as perfect sinless beings and they chose to sin thus bringing about sin and death. This teaching takes away the responsibility of God to save mankind and puts the responsibility on man to save himself.
Romans 8:20 For THE CREATURE WAS MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Vanity in this scripture means “devoid of truth” and we can easily see how that relates to sin. Mankind was made subject to “SIN”. Humans were never created perfect and that teaching totally contradicts this scripture. When we understand the truth in these scriptures, we will also understand that God is responsible for saving mankind and He will save all of mankind. This is all for a grand purpose perfectly being orchestrated by the Creator of All. You will never learn this from church because the church believes in man’s own will and power to thwart the very plans of God. It is blasphemous to think that we (mere mortals) can outthink and overrule the course of God’s plan for His creation.
We all know that man eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which brought about sin and death to all mankind. Do you think it’s interesting that God said this afterwards?
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Do you really think that this was a surprise to God? Now remember we are talking about the all-powerful, all knowing, ever present God Almighty. How can anything surprise God? How can we even think for a second that God isn’t in control? Did we forget Genesis 1:26, And God said, LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE, after our likeness: Do you think that God was just kidding when he said this? Having the knowledge of good and evil was paramount in the process of man having the likeness of God. So how does Satan factor into this grand plan of God Almighty? Satan was purposefully created to be God’s instrument of evil. Some will say that God is perfectly holy and incapable of sinning. Well that is absolutely true, but that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t facilitate evil.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and CREATE DARKNESS: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS. You see, I am not making this stuff up. I’m sorry that you were never taught these things but this is the truth; if you doubt it, look the scriptures up for yourselves. Notice that God says he creates evil and not that he does evil. In order for him to create evil, he needs an instrument to take care of the business of evil. There is no such thing as good without evil. We only understand up in its relationship to down. You cannot understand or see light unless there is darkness.
Now looking back in Genesis 3, we read that the serpent is described as being more subtil; which means intelligent and cunning than any beast of the field. What is the field? This isn’t talking about the literal ground where animals walk. You have to remember that the bible is a spiritual book and we must follow along spiritually. We will not get the true understanding of scripture if we think with our carnal minds. Jesus tells us what the field represents;
Matthew 13:38 THE FIELD IS THE WORLD; Satan’s domain is the world; Job 1:7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, FROM GOING TO AND FRO IN THE EARTH, AND FROM WALKING UP AND DOWN IN IT. So what is Satan’s purpose in searching the earth (world)? Who inhabits the world? Mankind inhabits the world.
Genesis 2:7 And THE LORD GOD FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. So we know that man was created from the dust of the ground. We (mankind) are dust. We also know that the serpent deceived Eve which ultimately resulted in sin and death. Now that sin and death has entered the world, God curses mankind and the serpent. How did God curse the serpent?
Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST SHALT THOU EAT ALL THE DAYS OF THY LIFE: Remember that we just read that mankind is dust. So Satan or the serpent was specifically and purposefully created by God to devour mankind. Are you scratching your head yet? Let’s see if this helps;
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because YOUR ADVERSARY THE DEVIL, as a roaring lion, WALKETH ABOUT, SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR: Satan is not a lion but he devours like a lion. Have you ever watched a lion attack its prey? It is ferocious and the prey has little chance of survival when in the clutches of the lion. That is why Peter admonishes us to stay sober and to be vigilant. The word sober is translated from the Greek word “nēphō” and it is translated in others scriptures at “watch”. Peter isn’t referring to literally abstaining from alcoholic beverages. We are to be calm and collected in the spirit. The word vigilant is translated from the Greek word “grēgoreō” and it also means to be watchful or keep awake. This isn’t talking about the physical. We all physically need sleep but we must always stay spiritually awake because the adversary the devil is going to and fro and up and down in the earth seeking to devour you. It is the carnality of a man that Satan seeks to devour you with.
Romans 8:7 Because the CARNAL MIND IS ENMITY AGAINST GOD: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. Every time you submit to the lusts of the flesh (carnally mindedness) Satan has devoured you. The carnal nature of a man cannot serve God because the carnal man is under the law of sin. Satan is doing everything he was created to do and so do we. We (mankind) sin because we were made subject to sin. If we understand that God is in control, it will be easier for us to understand the scriptures. Satan was created by God for the express purpose of creating evil.
The Christian church teaches that Satan was a beautiful glorious archangel named Lucifer who one day decided (with his free will) that he wanted to be exalted higher than God and was kicked out of heaven. They cite these verses to justify this claim;
Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou FALLEN FROM HEAVEN, O LUCIFER, SON OF THE MORNING! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE ABOVE THE STARS OF GOD: I WILL SIT ALSO UPON THE MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION, in the sides of the north: I WILL ASCEND ABOVE THE HEIGHTS OF THE CLOUDS; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH. First let me say that the whole teaching of Satan once being an angel in heaven named Lucifer is nothing more than another Christian fable. Satan was never an angel because we already read in Genesis that he was created as a serpent. 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for THE DEVIL SINNETH FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. You cannot start off as a beautiful angel of light in the beginning and also sin from the beginning. Satan was created as a serpent in the beginning for the express purpose of deceiving, lying, tempting, etc. All these things are evil and represent sin.
So where did this false doctrine of Satan being the angel Lucifer start? The Lucifer fable was created to justify the ridiculous an unscriptural belief in free will. The belief in free will basically makes the claim that a person is capable of making “uncaused choices” such as in the case of sin. It is believed that for no reason whatsoever, Adam and Eve used their free will to disobey God which led to the cataclysmic fall of mankind. This is not scriptural truth in any way. Satan was not created as an angel named Lucifer and this is nothing but a Christian fairy-tale. The word Lucifer is in the King James Bible because of the deceived uninspired translations of men.
If you look up the word lucifer in a Hebrew concordance, you will see that it was translated from the Hebrew word – “heylel”. We cannot cross reference this with any other scripture, guess why? Because Isaiah 14:12 is the only verse in the entire King James bible that has this word in it. This is the first clue that we might have a problem. In order to find the source of this gross translation error, we must search past the King James Version.
Lucifer is of Latin origin and do you think that it is ironic that there was a Latin translation of the holy scriptures before the King James translation? That Latin translation is called the Latin Vulgate.
Here are some interesting facts:
In the Latin Vulgate, the word lucifer is found in 3 scriptures.
|
Scripture |
Latin Vulgate | King James |
Word Translation |
|
Job 11:17 |
et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et cum te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer. | And thine age shall be clearer than the noonday: thou shalt shine forth, thou shalt be as the morning. |
morning |
|
2 Peter 1:19 |
et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris. | We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: |
day star |
|
Isaiah 14:12 |
quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes. | How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! |
none |
Do you notice the problems here? Remember that I told you that the word Lucifer appears only one time in the King James Bible. The word lucifer appears 3 times in the Latin Vulgate. So why did the King James translators drop the word lucifer completely from the other 2 scriptures and decide to keep it in Isaiah 14:12? They dropped the other two words because they both came from two totally different Hebrew words.
Lucifer isn’t translated from “heylel” in Job 11:17 as it is translated in Isaiah 14:12. It is translated from a completely different Hebrew word which is “boqer” and it means morning. Even the word morning as it is translated in Isaiah 14:12 in the King James comes from a different Hebrew word which is “shachar”. In Isaiah 14:12, why is lucifer used as an adjective in the Latin Vulgate, then magically changes into a noun in the King James? I’m asking these questions to show you the holes in the theology of Luficer the archangel.
What the King James translators have done in this case is a translation travesty. They obviously believed in the Lucifer fable and they seemingly were successful in pulling off one of the greatest translation debacles of all time seeing that many people still believe this lie even today. Lucifer is a latin adjective and it means light-bringing as in reference to the light of the moon. It absolutely has nothing to do with a fallen angel and it is not a noun so there is no need for this word to be capitalized. The Hebrew word “heylel” which is what the King James translators used to render the noun Lucifer comes from another Hebrew word “halal” and it means in the sense of brightness. This word is used in scripture primarily as the word “praise”. If you look at a Hebrew Interlinear of the Hebrew texts of Isaiah 14:12, you will see that another Hebrew word exists that hasn’t been translated into any English word. As it reads in the English, the Hebrew word comes after the phrase “son of the morning” and that Hebrew word is “yalal”. It is used 29 times in other scriptures as the word “howl”. Why is it that we don’t see the word “howl” translated in Isaiah 14:12? You don’t see it because the King James translators completely omitted it because they needed to figure out a way to slide the word lucifer in this verse.
Do you think that I am making this stuff up? Let’s look at Isaiah 14:12 in some other modern translations to see what they thought about O Lucifer;
How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O SHINING ONE, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations. (Young’s Literal Translation)
How you have fallen from heaven, MORNING STAR, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! (New International Version)
How you are fallen from heaven, O SHINING STAR, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world. (New Living Translation)
How you have fallen from heaven, O STAR OF THE MORNING, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations! (New American Standard Bible)
None of these translations include the word “howl”, which isn’t necessarily accurate but the fact that they have all eliminated the use of the word Lucifer all together is the most important translation correction.
Here is the best translation I’ve seen of Isaiah 14:12;
How have you fallen from the heavens! HOWL, son of the dawn! You have been hacked down to the earth, Defeater over all nations! (Concordant Version of the Old Testament)
You see the proof in the scriptures. It is time that this lie gets completely exposed for all to see. The teaching of Lucifer the archangel has no scriptural truth to it.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for SATAN HIMSELF IS TRANSFORMED INTO AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. [Why is it that bible scholars and theologians have this scripture backwards? They say that Satan started off as an angel of light and then transformed himself into the devil. This whole doctrine of Lucifer the archangel proves this scripture to be true. Satan isn’t an angel of light and if he was, he wouldn’t have to do any transforming. Satan was, is, and has always been that old serpent;
Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, THAT OLD SERPENT, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Now let me show you how Isaiah 14:12 reads in the translation of the Greek Septuagint;
How have you veered from the sky, bringer of morn, that rose so early? He is crushed into the earth that set forth towards all the nations. How art thou fallen from this verse, O Lucifer (Sarcasm)? Where did you go? Is it possible that the inclusion of Lucifer as a noun (person figure – Satan) in the King James Version is a complete fabrication? That is exactly the reason. The theology of Lucifer the fallen archangel from heaven is a complete and total fabrication.
Isaiah 14:12 is referring to the king of Babylon and it never had anything to do with Lucifer who later turned himself in to Satan. Here is the contextual proof;
Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against THE KING OF BABYLON, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! [I think it is rather amusing that many Christian believers bring up “context” when attempting to debate the meaning of scripture. I cannot tell you how many scriptures the Christian church uses and continues to teach completely out of context and Isaiah 14:12 is probably one of the biggest examples of a context mishap. Context is by no means the rule which one is to interpret scripture, however, it is important to understand all words used in scripture as it pertains to a certain subject.]
God created Satan the devil, that old serpent from the beginning for the express purpose of carrying out the necessary evil to fulfill God’s ultimate purpose. Remember this;
Genesis 2:17 But of THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. [God had already created this tree of the knowledge of good and evil and this is God’s purpose for man. God is purposefully allowing his creation to have an experience of evil to humble mankind.
Ecclesiastes 3:10 I have seen the travail [experience of evil], which God hath given to the sons of men [all humanity] to be exercised [humbled] in it. [This is a process, God’s process. When God purposes anything, it shall and will come to pass. That is why God can declare the end from the beginning. All is God and all is of God and this is His will and purpose.]
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, BEHOLD, THE MAN IS BECOME AS ONE OF US, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: [Satan is God’s agent, in giving us the experience of evil in order to become like God.]
God the Almighty declares…
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I HAVE CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY. Isaiah 54:16
Satan is God’s WASTER…
The Real Gospel of Christ 
So, if God created evil (Satan) for his purposes; and his purposes will be fulfilled, what is his final outcome? Is he man/angel? Or, a man being used by Satan…and what of that man? Thank you for your time.
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God created everything for his purposes. There is nothing in creation that wasn’t intended for God’s purposes.
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
In Revelation 20:10, we are told that the devil is cast into the lake of fire where he is tormented day and night for ever and ever. This verse is not properly translated and it is not understood because most people believe that the lake of fire is a literal “lake of fire” for the express purpose of torturing people. The word tormented is translated from the Greek word “basanizō” and it is more appropriately defined as a testing for purity. The devil will be tested and refined in the lake of fire for the ages of the ages (not for ever and ever). What does for ever AND ever mean? Is “for ever and ever” longer than just “for ever”? There cannot be more than one period of “ever”. Ever is not a proper translation for the Greek word “aiōn”. Aiōn means an age so the devil will be tested and refined in the lake of fire for a period of time until there remains no sin or evil in him.
Also, what sense would it make for God to torture the devil for ever and ever when he created him in the first place?
Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
The devil is a spiritual creature. He is not a man or an angel that turned himself into the devil. He was created as the crooked serpent from the beginning. The devil is necessary in the process for humans to obtain the knowledge of good and evil. Without a knowledge of evil, how can we understand what it means to be good? It is the knowledge of good and evil that is preparing all of us to be sons and daughters of the Most High.
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Can you please explain matthew 25:41.
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Hi Mona, it would be an arduous task for me to explain one scripture that is one of Christianity’s favorite verses to defend its pagan hell. I don’t know if you are asking because you genuinely want the truth or if you are trying in someway to contradict me. There is no way for me to explain Matthew 25:41 as it is written in most popular bible translations because most popular bible translations erroneously translate the Greek word aionios as eternal or everlasting. The Greek word aionios is a Greek adjective that is derived from its root Greek noun which is aion. The Greek word aion means an age and since adjectives describe nouns, an adjective cannot take on a different meaning from the noun it is derived from. Just as hourly pertains to hours, aionios pertains to aions so aionios could only ever mean age-abiding or that which pertains to ages. That is the first issue with Matthew 25:41 that must be reconciled before anyone could ever really understand it. The second issue is understanding the spiritual symbolic use of the word fire as it is used in this particular scripture. Since we know now that this “fire” is not everlasting but age-lasting, we can surmise that this fire has a purpose other torturing people. For one, if we insist on believing that this fire must be literal and physical fire, the we also have to accept that physical fire can destroy a physical human being. It is impossible for a physical human being to be destroyed with physical fire for all eternity. The age-lasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels is a spiritual fire that purges. It is a fire that purifies just as fire purifies gold and silver. The bible uses fire as a metaphor in a number of scriptures. Christ said everyone will be salted with fire but surely we can see that this is spiritual language. The fire of God is used to test, to chastise, and to correct. This fire of God was prepared for the devil and his angels but who are the devil’s angels? The problem with this interpretation is that the word angel in the Greek is the same word as messenger. Religious tradition has taught us what to believe when we think of what an angel is but the Greek word for angel is aggelos and it just means a messenger. Many Christians believe that Satan convinced a 3rd of heavens “angels” (messengers of God I might add) to rebel against him but that is religious fantasy. There is no distinction between a spiritual messenger and a earthly messenger when the Greek word aggelos is used in scripture. We have to understand the difference by context and allowing scripture to explain itself. In Dr. Strong’s exhaustive concordance of the bible, he explains the definition of aggelos by implication as a pastor so we have to leave room for the possibility that these messengers of the devil could be the lying Christian pastors of Christianity that preach that God is going to torture most of the world’s populations in some godless place called hell. Hell is the most evil and anti-Christ doctrine that has ever existed but hell is one of Christianity’s most fundamental dogmas. To deny hell would almost disqualify someone from being a Christian but the truth is there will be many Christians that Christ will tell to depart from Him. This is not for them to be tortured but for them to be judged by the fire of God to turn to righteousness.
Isaiah 26:9 ….when your (God) judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
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Thanks for your reply, not here to contradict but to keep learning….would like to have your explanation on Isaiah 4:1 and 4:3. Thankyou.
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Isaiah 4 is not a book I’ve studied extensively so I can’t give an explanation that I feel comfortable with. However, I did do a little research and found a commentary by Matthew Henry. You can check it out here at https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Isa/Isa_004.cfm. I don’t endorse everything he records in his commentary but I thought it was at least an interesting take on Isaiah 4.
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What about Ezekiel 28:11–19?
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The king of Tyrus is not Satan…
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Why did Jesus say it would be better if Judas Iscariot had never been born? What are your thoughts on this?
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Jesus NEVER said that… let’s take a look at this verse in the King James translation;
Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Based on the way this verse is translated in the King James, it does appear that Jesus Christ is saying that it would be better if Judas had never been born but the truth is hidden in the original Greek. Before you can understand this, you must first understand that men have corrupted the word of God and the King James Bible is probably the worst in that regard. The Christian hell is a very powerful doctrine and the “church” uses it to promote submission through fear. Christians primarily become Christians to escape an eternal hell of torture coupled with the fantasy of going to a magical heaven. The purpose of the church is to fill the church pews and if the church pews are filled then the offering plate is filled. Religion has always been about power and money. In order for the Christian hell to have some merit, bible translators had to change the scriptures by adding and taking away words. Let me show you how those bible translators changed the Greek of Matthew 26:24 in order to support the doctrine of the evil eternal Christian hell. Let’s take a look at Matthew 26:24 in a Greek-English Interlinear;
The indeed son of the man goes as it has been written about him; Woe but to the man that, through whom the son of the man is delivered up; good it was to him, if not was born the man that. (The Emphatic Diaglott)
On the surface, it may not be as easy to catch but you have to have a ready eye. Notice the word order in the last part of Matthew 26:24 in the King James Bible;
– it had been good for (that man) if (he) had not been born [In the KJV, “that man” is translated before “he”. Now let’s look at the last part of Matthew 26:24 in the The Emphatic Diaglott which is a Greek-English Intelinear;
– good it was to (him), if not was born the (man that) [In the Emphatic Diaglott, (him) is translated before the (that man) but what does this all mean? Well, this changes everything about what Jesus was saying. The (he/him) is JESUS CHRIST and the (that man) is Judas. Let’s take a look at Matthew 26:24 in the Concordant Literal New Testament;
seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going away according as it is written concerning HIM [this HIM is JESUS CHRIST the Son of Mankind], yet woe to THAT MAN [Judas Iscariot] through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him [Same HIM – Jesus Christ] if THAT MAN [Judas Iscariot] were not born!”
So, it would have been better or ideal for JESUS CHRIST if Judas Iscariot were never born because it was the actions of Judas that led to Jesus Christ being delivered up to the Jews to be flogged, beaten, spit on, whipped, mocked, and ultimately crucified…
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Thank you, continue to make this wisdom available.
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Thank you and will do!
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Ohhhh I see now. Thank you so much this sight has helped me tremendously.
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So who is the lightbearer Isiah speaks of?
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Are you referring to the use of the word “lucifer” in Isaiah 14:12 and it’s definition of light bearer?
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I have another question. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Where was he cast out from? Heaven? Where were he and his angels? In Revelation 7 it talks about there being a war in heaven against the dragon which would be Satan. I dont know this just isnt making sense to me. I know I’m still pretty carnally minded when it comes to scripture. Could you please help me out with this?
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Yes, Satan was cast out from heaven but I need to explain a few things so that you can have a chance at understanding what I am saying.
Heaven is not a physical place with literal pearly gates, streets of gold, and babies flying around playing harps. Those ideas of heaven were created by carnal minded men. They didn’t mean any harm, they just didn’t know any better. Heaven is a SPIRITUAL REALM and it is invisible to humans. We cannot SEE spiritual heaven because we are fleshy carnal humans. The only way that we can access this spiritual realm of heaven is in our mind because it is our mind that controls our thoughts that lead us to act as we do.
Another thing, the word “angels” can be misleading because virtually all people believe that “angels” are only heavenly beings that exist with God but that is not always the case. The word angel comes from the Greek word “aggelos” and according to Dr. Strong’s Greek Concordance, aggelos is defined as a messenger, an envoy, or a PASTOR so “angels” can be HUMAN messengers as in the case of Luke 7:24;
And when THE MESSENGERS (same Greek word “aggelos”) OF JOHN were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
Surely these messengers of John were not referring to the heavenly angels of God but rather men who were more or less, disciples of John. At times, it can be difficult to discern whether scripture is referring to angels as human messengers or messengers from God but scripture NEVER refers to heavenly angels as messengers of the devil. The devil doesn’t have angels, he has MESSENGERS and the messengers of the devil are human. Now, there are evil spiritual entities that assist the devil in his campaign to deceive but those entities are called DEMONS and not ANGELS. Both of those words come from two totally different words.
So, Satan is cast out from heaven (the spiritual realm where we can experience God) and he was cast out with his deceiving human messengers. In Revelation 12:7, we are told that there was war in “heaven” but what does that really mean? Was there a literal WAR in heaven? The Christian church teaches that this was a “literal” war in heaven I guess like World War I with Michael and the angels throwing heavenly bombs at Lucifer and the fallen angels that “chose” to rebel with him. This is nothing but an example of the foolish carnality of the human mind. Revelation 12:7-8 has nothing to do with a literal war in God’s spiritual heaven. So what is this “war in heaven”?
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Notice that it says, we wrestle NOT against flesh and blood. So this tells us that this is not a literal physical war. Paul identifies what we wrestle against and they all include things that are invisible. The word “high” as in “high places” is translated from the Greek word “epouranios” and it is translated 16 others times as the word “HEAVENLY”. Ephesians 6:12 tells us that there is spiritual wickedness in the heavenly. Remember that “heaven” is not a physical place, it is a spiritual realm. Humans are NOT spiritual beings but rather earthly and physical beings so humans cannot actually see the powers of spiritual wickedness in the heavenly realm. Satan is the ruler of the darkness of this world and he controls the spiritual forces that influence us to do evil. He doesn’t force us to do anything evil but he preys on our carnal minds and the lusts of our hearts. One of Satan’s trademark abilities is his power to DECEIVE… To be deceived requires a person to be influenced in their MIND and people stand or fall based on what they believe in. How much blood has been shed throughout the history of mankind over simple differences in beliefs and ideas? It is through the mind that humans can access and experience the spiritual realm. Sure we live inside of a fleshly physical body but our mind with all of our thoughts, beliefs, and convictions represent who we really are. Heaven is a realm of spiritual understanding, spiritual thinking, and a spiritual way of existing in this physical realm. The bible uses the words heaven, earth, and sea to describe the different levels of spirituality.
Revelation 5:13 AND EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, AND ON THE EARTH, AND UNDER THE EARTH, AND SUCH AS ARE IN THE SEA, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Revelation 5:3 And NO MAN IN HEAVEN, NOR IN EARTH, NEITHER UNDER THE EARTH, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Men do not literally dwell in the spiritual realm of God’s heaven. This is referring to the different levels of spirituality. There are people who dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven, earth, and the sea.
Heaven – this is the highest level of spiritual understanding
Earth – this is the middle level of spiritual understanding
Sea – this is the lowest level or the level of no spiritual understanding
People who dwell in heaven are considered to be God’s elect (those who overcome the world) and those who have been called out of the corrupt church of man’s religion. This group represents the few chosen of God who believe and understand the truths of God’s word. Heaven dwellers represent the highest level of spiritual understanding and access to experiencing God.
People who dwell in the earth are the people who attend church or “religious folk” as this group of people have some spiritual understanding. However, this group is still deceived and under the power of Satan.
People who dwell in the sea are the people of the world who have little or no spiritual understanding in accordance to the word of God.
Consider this verse;
Revelation 12:12 THEREFORE REJOICE, YE HEAVENS, AND YE THAT DWELL IN THEM. WOE TO THE INHABITERS OF THE EARTH AND OF THE SEA! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This is not talking about literal men dwelling in a literal heaven like what Christianity teaches. How absurd is it to think that there are men who literally inhabit the sea. This is spiritual and figurative language. The true saints of Christ have left the earth (not the physical earth) and they dwell with Christ in the spiritual realm of heaven. This isn’t literal but rather spiritual. Notice that the scripture says, “Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and sea”. The reason this is stated is because Satan still has dominion over those who dwell in the earth and sea but not those who dwell in heaven. Remember Revelation 12:7-8;
And there was WAR IN HEAVEN: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, AND PREVAILED NOT; NEITHER WAS THEIR PLACE FOUND ANY MORE IN HEAVEN.
Satan didn’t prevail in heaven because heaven dwellers know the truths of God word and they cannot be deceived so there is no place for Satan in “heaven” because deceiving is what Satan does. There was no literal “war” in some magical kingdom called heaven in which Satan decided that he wanted to be God and subsequently starting a riot in such a place. That is nothing but the foolish carnal ideas of men. Hope this helps…
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If heaven represents the highest level of spiritual understanding and Satan”s messengers are human, are you saying that his human messengers occupied the highest level of spiritual understanding but were cast down from there??
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No, because Satan doesn’t dwell in heaven he dwells in the “earth”…
Job 1:7 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
Satan cannot touch “heaven dwellers”…
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and “YOU” who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the “EARTH” and the “SEA”! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
God has a heaven and man has his own created heaven in his own mind… God’s heaven is the place of all truth while man’s created heaven is a place of delusion!
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Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and “YOU” who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the “EARTH” and the “SEA”! For the devil has come down to you,”
Come down from where??
Thanks for your patience!
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The devil doesn’t come down from any literal physical location for the devil himself is a spiritual creature. There is a spiritual place where control and influence is manipulated and that place exists in the “mind”…
Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
The devil influences and deceives people who dwell in the “spiritual mind” of earth and sea… Remember that the devil has no influence over “heaven dwellers” so he has “come down” to the earth and sea of mind to deceive those who dwell there in their mind… that’s why Revelation 12:12 says, WOE to the inhabitants of the “EARTH” and the “SEA”!
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And to add to this, the description of the Angels that fought along with Michael does not fit spirit angel but rather Men. It says ‘and they overcame him (the dragon) by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB and by the WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY, and they LOVE NOT THEIR LIVES UNTO DEATH. Spirit angels do not need the blood of the lamb because the scripture says he did not die for Angels, not do they need any word of testimony to fight etc. Therefore, the heaven that the dragon was cast out from couldn’t have been physical or literal heaven but the heaven in man. Then and only then can we have a new heaven (within us) and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness
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Hi there I had another question. In Revelation 12;9 it says the devil was cast out into the earth with all of his angels. Cast out from where? Where were they at this time? In Revelation 7 it talks about their being war in heaven against the dragon which would be Satan. Can you help me out with this? I am still pretty confused when it comes to the Lucifer thing.
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Hi I am reading your sight all day and I am pretty shocked( positively) with all the content. a lot of things makes sense now. I wish you had more analysis on this particular subject. I felt it was kind of short.
So can you please finish your explanation on this verse :Isaiah 14:12-14 How art thou FALLEN FROM HEAVEN, O LUCIFER, SON OF THE MORNING! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE ABOVE THE STARS OF GOD: I WILL SIT ALSO UPON THE MOUNT OF THE CONGREGATION, in the sides of the north: I WILL ASCEND ABOVE THE HEIGHTS OF THE CLOUDS; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH……The serpent still want to be like God?? I am a little bit confused.
What do you think about the theory that the book of revelation was added by the church(made in trans with so many details , the style of writing is weird and that it is made up for the christian community to let thing happen in our present days because it’s according to scripture and so on….thanks and God bless
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Isaiah 14:12 has absolutely NOTHING to do with Satan… The word “Lucifer” is a LATIN adjective that means morning or day star. It is not even a proper noun or the name of anything so there is no need for it to be capitalized. Isaiah 14:12 is referencing the King of Babylon which was King Nebuchadnezzar who was a man. Satan has NEVER wanted to be like God for he was created for the purpose of being God’s instrument of evil. Satan doesn’t have “free will” and neither do we as humans… Isaiah 14:12 is only speaking about the fall of King Nebuchadnezzar due to him becoming proud and puffed up in his own arrogance. He was never literally in the throne room of God but he had ascended to the heavens in his own mind. He thought that he was responsible for all of the power that was given to him by God. When he failed to give God the glory, God took his kingdom away – he symbolically fell from the heavens (high standing with God). As long as you continue to think that Isaiah 14:12 has anything to do with Satan then you will always be confused.
I have never read anything that suggested that Revelation was added by the church. I can tell you that the book of Revelation is “symbolized” and that is why the writing is weird. Jesus Christ does not have a real literal sword coming out of his mouth and Death and Hades are not literally riding around on horses. It is all symbolic and figurative language that must be accurately explained for one to understand it.
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Could you please explain rev. 13-18
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6 is the number of man and man is the beast of Revelation 13. You are the beast, I am the beast, we all are the beast. The evil carnal man of sin that lives in all of us since the begging… the beast that was 6 (men of the past), the beast that is 6 (men of today), and the beast that will be 6 (men of the future). The beast within all of us has always existed and will continue to exist until God destroys the beast in the lake of fire.
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if satan is Gods instrument of evil,why did God say he regrets creating man?
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We have to be very careful when attributing “human emotions” to God. God is not a human but God does have emotions and so the scriptures often describe God in human terms so that we can comprehend it. Noah was said to have found grace is the EYES of the Lord but surely we know that God doesn’t have a set of human eyes in a human head. God is Spirit and spirit is invisible… God is everywhere and God sees everything all at the same time. If God has two literal eyes like humans He wouldn’t even be able to see behind Himself… From a human perspective, when we regret something, this implies that we made a decision that we now wish we hadn’t made and that is commonly referred to as a mistake. We cannot apply this same logic to God for God doesn’t make mistakes nor does He change His mind… (Malachi 3:6) So we have to use a little bit of wisdom to understand what it means when God says he regretted creating mankind. The best example that I can think of is the relationship between parents and their children. Child rearing is difficult and stressful and I know that I’m not the only parent that has at some point regretted having children but most parents only feel that way in times of duress when children act hardheaded and unappreciative. Genesis 6:5 says that God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So it was for those reasons that God regretted creating mankind but if God is all knowing then surely God knew this about humanity before He created humanity but it didn’t stop Him from creating humanity now did it? I suppose that the world’s population would be a lot less than what it is if parents had that same God-ability to see how their children would turn out before they were born. So God’s regret is not the same as human regret but God is described in human terms for us to understand Him better but we have to keep those human terms in the proper perspective.
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please can u explain 2thessalonian 4:15-17
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2 Thessalonians 4:15-17? There are only 3 chapters in 2 Thessalonians… Do you mean 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17?
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yes ,its 1thesalonians 4 vs 15 to 17
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1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is speaking about the events of the first resurrection which is the resurrection to life (age-lasting life) in the kingdom of God. At the second coming of Christ, the dead saints will be resurrected first in immortal glorified spiritual bodies and the living saints will be transformed afterwards. Then all of the saints of God will meet the Lord in the air. They will reign with Christ for 1,000 years. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is commonly used to justify the teaching of the rapture but the rapture doctrine is just another Christian fable.
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please clarify then all the saints will meet the lord in the air is it literal they will reign with Christ for 1000 yrs in the air
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The saints will only “meet” the Lord in the air like a grand welcoming celebration…
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I looked at some other Bible translations of job 26 13 and it’s says that God hand pierced the gliding serpent or travailed the fugitive serpent in the concordant translation
Not that he created or formed the serpent
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It is quite evident that different translations render different words for the corresponding Hebrew/Greek words but one must be careful in assuming which bible translations are more accurate. In regards to your comment, there is no question that God “created/formed” the serpent because we have other scriptures that back up that reference.
Genesis 3:1 Now the “serpent” was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made… (Is there any disputing Genesis 3:1?)
The word “formed” in Job 26:13 comes from the Hebrew verb “chuwl” and this Hebrew word is found a total of 62 times in the Old Testament Hebrew. This one word is translated as 12 different words in the English. Some of the words have the same meanings but this is how bible translators played their little word games to suit their own religious bias. Sometimes, they just didn’t have a clue what a word meant or there wasn’t an exact translation of a word from one language to another language. I’m not saying that every bible translator had a willful intent to deceive but nonetheless, mistakes were made. The Concordant Version is a “good” bible translation but it is not flawless. There is no such thing as a mistake free bible translation as they all have errors. Some errors are obviously more grave than others. Usage is one of the best ways to determine a words true meaning. In reference back to the Hebrew word “chuwl”, this word is found in Psalm 90:2 and it is also translated as the word “formed”…
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had “formed” the earth and the world, even from everlasting (age) to everlasting (age), You are God.
Do you think that it is more appropriate to say that God “pierced” or “travailed” the earth as opposed to “forming” the earth? Did God not create the heavens and the EARTH? If God didn’t create or form the crooked serpent, who did?
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after the grand celebration in the air,what happens next?
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I don’t know exactly but I supposed there will be a lot of learning… I don’t think it will be 1,000 years of dancing, clapping, and singing. Maybe grand celebration wasn’t a good choice of words but since the “church” is the body of Christ otherwise known as the “bride” of Christ, Christ will be coming back to claim His wife as He is the bridegroom. This a metaphor of course but the saints will be “one” with Christ in the spiritual just as husband and wife are one in the physical. It will be “like” a wedding but not a earthly wedding. There is just so much we do not know in this life and it will remain a mystery until it comes to pass…
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Why must Satan be released after the 1000 year reign? Rev 20: 1-3 “And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years,
3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.”
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Nevermind. I found you answered this question below. Thank you!
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please explain proverb 27 vs 11
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Proverbs 27:11 My son, be wise, and make my heart glad, that I may answer him who reproaches me.
A father is responsible for parenting and teaching their son so the wise behavior/choices of the son are the best measure of the father’s character against criticism…
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is the air used for the grand celebration ,is it symbolic ?or a literal air?
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I don’t think that the “air” is necessarily symbolic for Jesus himself ascended into the heavens some time after His resurrection so that would indicate that He has power over the law of gravity. Christ says in John 3:8 that those “born of the Spirit” will be like the wind. Wind is invisible and it moves freely through the “air” so meeting the Lord in the “air” may not be as big a deal for someone in a spiritual body that can move around like the wind.
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is it possible they could rule and reign and judge from heaven over the unrighteous?
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When you say “heaven” are you referring to the physical heavens of this physical world? There are multiple heavens physical and spiritual… the saints will not rule, reign, or judge from the physical heavens of this physical world.
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The heart desire of God has been to bring heaven down to earth and not taking people out of the earth. Jesus prayed for His disciples that he is not saying they should be taken out of the world but that they should be preserved in it. The knowledge of the glory of God must fill the earth as the waters cover the sea. This is His eternal purpose as Lord’s prayer says… Let His Kingdom come, His Will be done on EARTH as it is done in the Heaven
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is there resurrection after the second death?
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No, the second death is a part of the resurrection to judgment which is the second and final resurrection event for humanity.
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which group of people is rev 7 vs 9-10 talking about,is it the first resurrection or second resurrection?
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Revelation 7:9-10 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
These verses are speaking of the people from both the first and second resurrection. This is the culmination of God’s salvation for all of the inhabitants of the world.
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With respect, this reply is not correct. if you look at verse 13 it says “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” and the reply in
verse 14 is “And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, ““These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
So in order of time, the 3 1/2 year tribulation takes place and at the very end, Christ returns and gathers the 144,000 saints. Directly after that the 1 year Great tribulation begins, after Armageddon, then the 1000 year reign of Christ and the saints begins.
It is at this point, at the beginning of the 1000 year reign that Revelation 7:9-17 occurs.
The 1st resurrection is immediately after the 31/2 year tribulation, when Christ returns and gathers the saints.
The 2nd resurrection occurs directly after the 1,000 year reign.
For further information please visit http://godsplanforall.com/
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Verses 4-8 in Revelation 7 speaks of the sealed servants of God or the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of the children of Israel. In verse 9, we read about another group of people, a “great multitude” that couldn’t be numbered. Here are two groups, the few and the many, and both groups represent all of the inhabitants of the world.
Your arguments are based on too much Christian fantasy in regards to tribulation and end-time events…
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revelation 20 vs 7 to9 please explain it
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Revelation 20:7-9;
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Satan is in prison because during the 1,000 year reign of the saints with Christ, there is no one around for him to deceive. All of the wicked and unbelieving people are still dead and in the grave awaiting the second resurrection and that is when Satan – next verse…
8 shall go out to “deceive” the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Satan will gather together all of the nations of humanity (Gog & Magog)… Gog is a Hebrew word meaning “mountain” and this word is often symbolized to represent a “king” but in this case it is not a literal physical one man king but the KING in every sinful man’s life which is the Beast of Carnality. Magog is also a Hebrew word meaning “land of Gog” and Magog was an actual literal region north of Israel but this is not physical but spiritual. Spiritual “Magog” is where the “Beast of Carnality” reigns and dwells which of course is in the hearts and minds of sinful men. Remember the beast in Revelation 13:1 that rises out of the sea? The sea is carnal humanity… They do battle against the saints of God (spiritual humanity) but remember Ephesians 6:12 – this is a “spiritual” battle not a physical one.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This is all just a symbolic representation of God’s judgment on all sinful humanity that will ultimately be destroyed through God’s sin purging fiery judgment.
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this is my understanding,is it those who refuse the righteous judgement rev 20 vs 12 ,that will be sent to lake of fire and be purged of the sinful ,carnal nature which they willingly refused to give up?
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The lake of fire is judgment… nobody can refuse God’s judgment otherwise one could argue that people could refuse to be cast in the lake of fire. That’s nonsense… being sent to the lake of fire has to do with people’s “works” and being sent there is not necessarily a bad thing. Judgment is not fun but the result of judgment is good. A person cannot willfully give up there carnal desires without God first giving them the power to do so… Giving up the carnal man is not easy and it requires divine intervention.
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Plz explain gen 3 vs 15, is it symbolic or literal, plz explain
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Plz was the fruit Adam and eve ate literal? And is Cain Satan’s son?
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I want to know about this too.
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Plz explain luke 17 vs 34 to 37
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Are you saying humans have no free will whatsoever? Wouldn’t that make us robots? Deuteronomy 30:19, John 7:17, 2 Corinthians 9:7, Galatians 6:7-10 and James 4:7-8.
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Yes that is exactly what I’m saying… Humans do NOT have “free” will. Humans do in fact have a will but it isn’t free. Our choices have a cost (consequence) so it isn’t wise to suggest that we can just freely do or choose whatever we want to. Now, you have stated that if we don’t have free will wouldn’t that make us robots? Well, I think that robots and humans have some things in common for robots are typically designed in ways to function like humans but robots do not have emotions. Robots do not have individualistic creative expression. Robots do not create relationships with other robots and robots do not reproduce. Humans are a unique creation but just like robots, we are limited to the design of our creator. None of the scriptures you quoted support the idea of “free will”. Just because humans can make choices doesn’t mean that we possess this man-made ability known as “free will”. Most people don’t even know what “free will” means, they just repeat it because that’s what they were taught. The concept of free will is impossible. There is no choice that can be made without causal information. When humans are born into this world, do they have free will to do whatever they want or are they subjected to do the wills of their parents? When does this silly little imaginary god-like sovereignty activate? You gravely underestimate the power of causal influence or what is better understood as causality. There is no effect that can come to be without some causal force behind the scenes. God is the number one causal force of everything and then there are literally hundreds of other secondary causal influences that make us who we are. As children, we learn from our parents and from our environment. We learn from teachers, our peers, the music we listen to, our relationships, the TV shows and movies we watch… this is all inspiration. There is also another powerful mechanism at work and it is genetics. Genetics plays a huge role in predisposition to certain behaviors be it mentally, emotionally, and physically. All of these factors of influence gets implanted into us throughout our lives and we eventually develop a core set of values/ideas that govern the way we think and operate in the world. Let me ask you this… does God have “free will”? If He does then is God free to tell a lie? Why or why not? We already know that God doesn’t lie but why doesn’t He lie? What source of influence is so powerful as to influence God to not lie? Free will means that someone can will to do whatever they want and that will is free from any and everything that could influence it otherwise. There is nothing that can sway it in one way or the other. It is made freely and if it is influenced in any way, it is no longer free. So what influenced God to not lie?
P.S. God doesn’t have “free will”…
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Thanks for the reply. The reason I asked is because I saw another Christian Universalist website (godsplanforall.com) claim if we didn’t have any free will whatsoever we would be robots and that we do have free will but only to a certain degree within God’s sovereignty.
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No problem Bradley and thanks for commenting… They are not wrong in one aspect but they totally contradict themselves by claiming that there is I guess what they would call, limited free will? Something is either free or it isn’t free. If I have a 52 inch TV with a sign that says, this TV is partially free would that make any sense to you? It is total nonsense to claim that we have any kind of free will. My point has always been that if something influences you to make a decision then the decision wasn’t free. The cost of that decision is directly connected to the thing that influenced it and it just so happens that all of our decisions are influenced by something even if we are not actively of aware of the influence. Humans have a will but it isn’t free. Some decisions may feel like they are free but they aren’t… Some decisions have little to no consequences while others have grave consequences. It doesn’t really matter in the end, all decisions are influenced by some causal force therefore eliminating any choice from ever being considered to be free. I like the godsplanforall website and they have a lot of good information on their site but I do not agree with them on this subject for “free will”. It would be okay if they just drop the word “free” because I don’t think it’s even necessary to include. We all have wills, I have a will, you have a will, every single person in the world has a will but our wills are molded in thousands of ways from thousands of sources throughout our lives. Does this make sense to you? Again thanks for commenting, I appreciate your feedback…
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God sends lying spirits therefore would he not be responsible for the lies his spirits tell? 1 Kings 22:22″The LORD said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.’ 23″Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you.”
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LOVE is the reason God do not lie.
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God operates under the “COUNSEL” of His own will. Counsel has to do with “LAW”. God has determined within His own will that He won’t lie so He doesn’t lie.
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It seems the theory of Satan being a “fallen Angel” was around before the KJV obscured things. i was reading some Irenaous, a second century “church father” and he seemed to believe this. it appears many early “church fathers’ believed this. Any thoughts on how this might have come about?
Blessing Brother!
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The church needed to figure out a way to insert the damnable teaching of “free will” into the bible so they made up this totally bogus story of Satan once being Lucifer who with his free will chose to defy God. With free will, the church figured out a way to get God off the hook for cosigning billions to eternal torture in some pagan hell.
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However, some of the early members of the “church” did not believe in Pagan Hell but rather, the restitution on all things. Examples – Origen and Clement. So, they would have no need to get God off the hook. Much more investigation needs to ne done regarding this subject and the orgin of this belief.
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Yes that is true but the matter of influence regarding the teaching of a pagan hell prevailed over the centuries. While those early church members may have believed in the restitution of all things, that belief became lost over time due to evil men corrupting the word of God by adding to and changing the word of God. The church’s of men have always been about power, money, and control… The church had no use for a God that would restore all things so the church destroyed that “God” and created their own version of “God”. A “God” that is not sovereign and a “God” that is subject to the wills of men. By adding this free will element to the equation, the church has made salvation the personal responsibility of every single human being instead of God being responsible for saving and restoring His creation according to His will.
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I would really be interested in hearing your thought on the following video. It’s a teaching on Jude 1:9 but from the perspective of a someone who does not believe that is a real, personal, being. To my suprise, I thought he made some good points on a otherwise strange scripture.
I know this is asking a lot but if you are willing, I would love to hear your opinion on this.
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I’m still stuck on your opening statement about Satan, the Serpent, being created in the beginning by God as whatever the Serpent was, evil, murderer, liar… and they later you state that Satan is a spirit.
Are we to assume then that before the trip wire was launched and they did eat, that Adam and Eve once could literally see in the spirit and talk in the spirit and then were blinded to the spirit by the eyes being opened to the flesh?
Is that what’s happened? Otherwise I’m afraid I’m really confused.
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The bible has a lot of symbolism and figurative expressions unless you think talking snakes, the tree of life, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and flaming swords are literal things. I’m not quite sure I understand your confusion or sarcasm. If Satan isn’t a spiritual creature then what is he? He’s certainly not an immortal snake nor is he some fallen angel.
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On June 6, 2016 in this question and answer series you make the following statement:
“The word tormented is translated from the Greek word “basanizō” and it is more appropriately defined as a testing for purity.”
This translation of this word everywhere I have looked find the meaning as “tormented”. Can you shed some more light on this?
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The original definition for “basanizo” is to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal. You can reference Strong’s G928 on the BlueLetterBible website. That was the original definition but words can and do take on different meanings over time. What is important to note is how the word is used biblically. In Matthew 8:6, basnaizo is used to describe the suffering of physical sickness. In Mark 6:48, basanizo is used to describe the toiling from rowing in a boat during a storm. In Revelation 12:2, basanizo is used describe the pain from childbirth. All of these descriptions can be situations to which people are tested for various reasons. It could be a testing of faith, patience, or how a person responds to life’s sufferings. God uses such things to build godly character. A person can be “tormented” from a variety of experiences. Life in general can bring on its own set of torments such as losing a love one, going through a messy divorce, getting laid off from work, getting injured or sick, parenting, etc. More times than not, a person comes out of such “torments” a much stronger and wiser person. Tormented is not necessarily a bad translation but the issue is when bibles add the words eternal and everlasting to the torment. There is no redeeming value to cause someone to suffer for all eternity. I cannot even begin to explain how grotesquely evil that is especially when literal fire is the tormenting agent. Everything that God does has a purpose but God wouldn’t allow anyone to suffer forever because there is nothing to be gained from it. A person can learn from being tested/tormented for a season but to be tested/tormented for all eternity is just insanity beyond what is even irrational.
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Very helpful. Thanks.
Henry
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Glad to hear that! Be well…
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Right from the get go you said that God created everything and that it was very good. And I agree with this. But you can’t say that God created Satan and it was all still good and then also say that God created man to be sinful. Just as Satan chooses to rebel and deceive, we also choose to do wrong. Sure God knew it was going to happen. But that doesn’t mean that he is responsible for our sinful nature or for Satan’s rebellion.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but it sure does seem like your saying that when God created Satan it was still all good but then saying that God created us to be sinful and somehow it was still good. That doesn’t make sense.
Just wanted to say this and get it out of the way. I’m going to continue reading now.
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I can most certainly say that God creating Satan was a good thing because God uses Satan as an instrument of evil. Evil is necessary to be instructed in it. If there was no such thing as evil how would you ever know about it? Evil has to exist for you to have knowledge of evil. God is not evil but God has knowledge of evil and He also creates evil. Romans 8:20 says that the creature was made subject to vanity… so that is a scripture that first tells us that humanity was made under a condition of vanity (worthlessness) but why would God do that? God did that because He has a plan. God never intended for man to remain in the flesh. The physical life/world is temporary. Satan chooses to do exactly what God created Him to do… to deceive, to lie, and to destroy. Man chooses to sin because that is exactly what God intended for man to do. Man was made flesh and with the flesh comes all of the lust thereof but man didn’t make himself, God made man flesh. God knew from the beginning that man couldn’t resist the pulls and desires of the flesh. The human heart is to weak to deny the cravings of the flesh. Are you telling me that a man chooses to like women? That’s absurd we are coded to like woman and that is why we cannot choose to not like woman. What purpose does Satan have to deceive? If God is really God, then there is nothing that can operate independent of what God allows. When Satan desired to tempt Job, he asked for permission and God granted his request with some boundaries of which he followed. Satan doesn’t do things for the sake of just doing it. In all of creation, creation does exactly what it was intended to do. Humans cannot fly. That was a limitation placed on humans but if you think that you can choose to fly which is something outside of what God has allowed, your next conscious experience might be having a conversation with your Creator. God is responsible for His creation just as you are responsible for what you create. Do you have children? If so are you not responsible for them? Being responsible doesn’t absolve accountability. I am responsible for my children but I do hold them accountable for what they do because I want them to learn. There is NO such thing as Satan’s rebellion. Satan NEVER rebelled at any time during any age Satan has always been Satan, a liar and a murdered from the beginning. There are a number of examples for which evil can be used for good. People that use drugs and overcome their addition can use their strength and testimony to help others along their journey to recovery. How can you tell anyone about anything if you’ve never gone through anything? A diamond is a diamond because of the pressure it goes through. You cannot bypass the pressure and still get a diamond. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they automatically was given a death sentence but this was the beginning to God’s process. What did God say to them afterwards? Behold, now the man has become like us (the Elohim Family) to have knowledge of good and evil. Does it seem to you that God thinks that having knowledge of good and evil is a bad thing? I mean for crying out loud it is a characteristic of God. God held man accountable for his disobedience but that was already a part of the plan because God never intended for man to live forever in the flesh. Guess who was an intricate part of the beginning of God’s plan? The serpent… Satan! We see examples everyday in real life how people turn bad situations into good ones. What would be the point of forgiveness if nobody ever wronged anyone? If you committed an egregious offense against me such as killing my son in a car accident you would be overcome with guilt however, if I forgave you, that would have an extraordinary impact on you. Forgiveness is powerful and difficult for the carnal man that lives in all of us but forgiveness only exists in a world where people can get hurt or wronged.
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I must say though I agree with you 100% here in regards to the remaining article. I noticed in my nkjv that later in this passage that “Lucifer” is described as a man who brought all nations low. And when looking into this further I discovered the same thing, that this was a Babylonian king. So I knew from this that this wasn’t some angelic being.
I have brought this up to a sister in Christ and she seems to think that when it starts talking about a man it’s moving on to some other context. But I thought that was a very weak argument.
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Hello again, I have read all of what you wrote on this site about this topic from top to bottom and I did not compleatly understand. Could you please explane the meaning of 2 Corinthians 11:14 from you’re perspective?
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2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
The majority of entire Christian religion believes that Satan was an angel name Lucifer which means light bearer but Satan was never an angel named Lucifer. The word “lucifer” is not even a proper noun it is a Latin adjective. Just as certain men lie, deceive, and transform themselves into ministers of God, Satan does the same thing so it’s no shocker because these deceivers are only following in the works of their true father, the devil.
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Do you have any insight on the Hebrew word “azazel” mentioned Lev 16:6? Jewish tradition contribute “azazel” to a fallen angel. However, this does not mean much as they held many perverted ideas.
LEV 16 seems to be a very rich section of scripture. I believe there is much spiritual insight that can be gathered from it. I was just curious is you have given much thought to this section of scripture?
Thank you.
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There are several translations that translate the Hebrew word “azazel” as scapegoat which has nothing to do with fallen angels. Azazel was the name of the demon in the movie “Fallen” which starred Denzel Washington as one of the chief detectives. It was a good movie but it was most certainly fiction. In Leviticus 16:10, the scapegoat is present alive before the Lord to make and atonement and then sent into the wilderness. This is biblical symbolism about what Christ has done for us. He is our scapegoat as He took on our sins and sent them far way (into the wilderness) to make an atonement to God for the sins of mankind.
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the word satan is seen by me to mean the word “opponent”, in the torah in Numbers 22:22 the messenger (Angel) of Yahuwah was said to be a satan, but in the NKJV its translated as adversary, if there was one single being called “satan” then how can the angel (messenger) of yahuwah be the satan figure we have been taught for so long?
also in the term opponent being the correct rendering in the english for me for the word, satan, anyone can be an opponent, an oppoonent is generally someone you have a friendship with that you disagree with that works through you, to make you feel like they are your opponent, like a fight with someone you have, when you argue and disagree over things and are trying to figure out what you believe, but its a nice way of putting it and feeling it, to be called an opponent.
when i recently learnt this, i had a friend who i regularly communicate with over the phone, and we discuss different beliefs and the state of the world and other things. and i found when i learnt satan means opponent, and not some scary dark being who’s the leader of all the other scary dark beings we think are known as demons (they are not known as demons originally) it made sense to me, that the word satan (opponent) is an emotional feeling we have about someone who is opposing us in something we’re seeing differently to them. its a peaceful word.
in saying that i haver seen a figure that is dark and scary looking that i knew was called satan when i was seeing it in someone who was speaking one day in a church, and ive seen figures that look like what we know of and describe as demons, but they are also not originally called demons. i dont know their original name, but in reality the concept of what we know as satan and demons as evil beings out to destroy our lives are actually not in the teachings of the new testament and other gnositc documents.
there is mean people in the dreamtime that our understanding of what we think are meant to be called demons, would be kinda appropriate, but the etymology of the word demon is from daimonion, and demon carries with it a different meaning to what a daimonion is.
the words translated as demons or evil spirits in the new testament come from basically one of two two greek words, diabolus and daimonion, diabolus is a emotional term, that is from two words dia and bolous, which literaly translates, so ive come to know as “throw through”.
its its when you speak about something from behind you in how you’re feeling and through it through you, to tell someone or express it openly to yourself, the hidden feelings of what you believe about something you may not normally want to share, kinda like an alter ego’s identity telling you and others whats going on in them, that you dont want to discuss normally
daimonion is a greek term that is likened to a real person that is known as a genie or jin they are not evil in nature like we have known the term demons to mean, they are normal people in the world of the dreamtime they help you make decisions and do things for you to make your life happen differently and to be helpful in getting you where you want to be in your life. like a feeling they speak to you, to go somewhere or do something and inner guide if you will. they are friendly and useful to get things done. im still learning about them so i dont know much more to say that i can know for sure. in greek understanding a daimonion is a postive term not a negative one like the words demon is to be understood.
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Just because a word has a specific meaning doesn’t mean that the word can’t be used to represent a name or title. You are correct in stating that the original Hebrew word “satan” means opponent or adversary but wasn’t the first opponent/adversary the “serpent”? Didn’t the serpent oppose God in the garden back in Genesis? The serpent was the original opposer so that title is almost synonymous with the serpent – so giving him that title is appropriate. However, the word “satan” can still be used in a general context to mean opponent or adversary such as the case in Numbers 22:22. It’s not suggesting that the “angel of the Lord” was also the serpent (opponent) or “Satan”. So of course anyone can be an opponent but everyone can’t be the original opponent. It’s a similar deal with the word “adam” which has been deemed as the first name of the first man but the Hebrew word “adam” simply means man or mankind in general. “Adam” was never the first name of the man God spoke to in the garden and the bible never mentions him by name but rather as, “the man”. Translations have made “adam” a proper noun and we have come accustomed to it. If we read the scriptures carefully, there is clearly a specific entity that stands out as the official opposer of God. God spoke to “the opponent” in chapter one of Job and that particular “opposer” talked back to God. They had a conversation and some caused Job to go through some serious physical troubles. Does the original opposer have a name? We don’t know so we just call him by what he does and what he represents – opposition.
Religious fantasy has certainly had a huge influence on what people think about evil, the devil, etc. but I do believe that God created a specific being to be His representative of evil. If God is good, how did He learn about evil? How did He discover it? I don’t have those answers but what I do know is that God figured out that you can’t know what good is without knowing what evil is too. In 2 Corinthians 12:7, Paul tells us that he was given a thorn in his flesh – a messenger of “Satan” to buffet him as a way to keep him humbled from everything that was revealed to him. The word “buffet” is translated from the Greek word “kolaphizō” and it is defined as to strike with the fist. This is the same word used to describe what happened to Christ up to his crucifixion. I don’t think Paul was just having emotional issues. He was beaten literally and figuratively and not by his own accord but by some other entity, a messenger of Satan – the opposer.
The word “demon” is more of a modern term that is understood to be synonymous with the word “devil” or “unclean spirits”. It is the English variation of the Latin “daemons”. These devils or unclean spirits were responsible for causing all kinds of sickness and diseases and there are dozens of these stories in the New Testament. These entities had to be cast out so that would lead me to believe that they weren’t good but we don’t need Satan or demons to destroy our lives because we are good enough at doing that ourselves. These “spirits” certainly serve a purpose but not anything outside of what God allows.
The Greek word “daimonion” is translated as the word “devil” 59 times in the New Testament and it is a derivative of the Greek word “daimōn” also translated as devil(s). I am well aware of the influence of religious tradition but if you read the scriptures that include this word there is no way not to come to the conclusion that whatever “daimonion” represents be it demons, devils, evil or unclean spirits it is clear that they weren’t good.
In Matthew 8 we read of two men possessed with these “daimōns” and they were dangerous to approach. Christ allowed the “daimōns” to be cast in a herd of swine and the “daimōns” caused them to drown. This same story is recorded in Luke 8 and in verses 38-39 it talks about the man that had the “daimōns” cast out of him wanting to follow Jesus but Jesus told him to go home and tell everyone what great things God has done for him. Having “daimōns” cast out of you is considered a great thing so these “daimōns” were not good from the context of this passage of scripture.
The Greek word “diabolos” is translated as the word devil 35 times in the New Testament and twice as accuser and once as slanderer. Let’s look at some actual scriptures to see how this word is actually used;
In Matthew 4 the “diabolos” attempts to tempt Jesus,
In Luke 13, we read in verses 36-39 the parable of the tares of the field. The Son of man (Jesus) sows the good seed – the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one – THE ENEMY THAT SOWED THEM IS THE DIABOLOS!
In Matthew 25:41, Jesus sends the CURSED into aionios age-abiding fire (not everlasting) which was prepared for the “diabolos” and his messengers.
In Luke 8 the “diabolos” takes away the word out of people hearts to prevent from believing and being saved.
In John 6:70, Jesus tells his disciples that one of them is a “diabolos” and we know for certain that he is referring to Judas who betrayed him and had him handed over to the Pharisees to be crucified.
In John 8:44, we read the “diabolos” is a murderer and he did not live by the truth because the truth ain’t in him. We also read the the “diabolos” is a liar and the father of it.
In Acts 10:38, we read that God anointed Jesus to heal all that were “oppressed” of the “diabolos”.
In Acts 13:10, we read that the children of the “diabolos” are the enemy of all righteousness.
In Ephesians 6:11, we read about putting on the whole armor of God to be able to withstand the wiles of the “diabolos”. Do you know what the word “wiles” means? It is translated from the Greek word “methodeia” and it means – cunning arts, deceit, craft, and trickery.
In 1 Timothy 3:6-7 we read about falling into the condemnation and the snare (trap) of the “diabolos”.
In 1 Peter 5:8 we read that the “diabolos” is the adversary likened as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
In 1 John 3:8, we read that sin is of the “diabolos” and the Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the “diabolos”.
In Revelation 12:9, we read that the “diabolos” deceives the whole world.
It is clear from the scriptures that this “diabolos” is more than just some hidden feelings of what a person believes. I read what you wrote about the Greek word “daimonion” but I’m not sure where you are getting your information from. You say that these “daimonion” were friendly and useful to get things done. You said that “daimonion” is a positive term not a negative one but have you read how this word is used in scripture?
In Matthew 9:33, the deaf and mute spoke after the “daimonion” were cast out of them.
In Matthew 10:8, casting out “daimonion” is included with healing the sick, cleansing the lepers, and raising the dead.
In Matthew 17:18, Jesus rebuked a “daimonion” and the “daimonion” departed from the child and the child was cured that very hour but cured of what? Back in verse 15 we read that the child was a lunatic and was sore vexed. The word lunatic is translated from the Greek word “selēniazomai” which back then meant moon-stuck because they didn’t have the same understanding of medical conditions but it has come to be described as someone having epilepsy which is a seizure disorder. The scripture also uses the phrase “sore vexed” which translates to suffering badly. This was the result of being possessed with a “daimonion” which also had the child falling in fire and in water.
In John 10:20 having a “daimonion” is likened to being MAD or beside one’s self (acting out of their mind).
I think that’s enough and I have only presented how these words are used in the scriptures. I have not added any of my own interpretation to what the scriptures say. I understand that you believe what you believe and that is fine I’m just responding based on what my understanding is about the devil. Thanks for the discussion friend.
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Hi,
This topic Satan as God’s perfect instrument of evil made me read Genesis again and examine it carefully.
In Genesis 1:26 when God said let’s make man in our own image, after our likeness. The next verses up to 36 mentioned about Adam’s role: to rule over God’s creations from animals to plants.
From what I understood, the “man in our own image, after our likeness” is that God has given humans with certain kind of awareness, unlike the animals. Human would have the ability to reason, to learn language, have a personality and a purpose. To express and understand love and appreciate beauty.
God has given mankind the responsibility to rule over all the other life He has made on earth. In that sense, humans would have God’s image or be God’s representative on earth.
So Adam’s role is to rule over God’s creations from animals to plants and also to multiply.
I did not see any reference as God is planning for man to be like Him in the sense of knowing good and evil, but it was mentioned after Adam’s disobedience Genesis 3:22′-Ánd the Lord GOD said, BEHOLD THE MAN IS BECOME ONE OF US, TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL, lest he put forth his hand and take also the tree of life, and eat and live forever.”
When Adam disobeyed he had to experience hardship and death. The part of which God said “knowing good and evil” for Adam to know the difference. You even said in your other paper that we won’t know good until we know evil (which I agree), adding to that life and death (to appreciate life, we have to experience death) to which I am confused because how can it be a likeness of God since God does not die?
My other question is: Is not the “man in our own image, after our likeness referring to the creation and not knowing good and evil? coz it seems we are not created to be like God who should know good and evil but as stewards of God’s creations.
I mean Genesis 1:26 you wrote: Having the knowledge of good and evil was paramount in the process of man having the likeness of God but the verse mentioned was in Genesis 3:22 where it gave me an impression that it was Adam’s actions that was expected by God (being the GOD Almighty) and He had dealt with Adam’s actions accordingly.
I would like to hear your thoughts about this. Thanks!
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Sure I’d be happy to make a few comments… Yes you are correct in describing the ways in which humanity is made in the “likeness” of God but all of those things fall under the umbrella of humanity having their eyes opened and being like God knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:4-5 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Is not having awareness, the ability to reason, learning languages, having a personality and purpose, to express and understand love and appreciate beauty all not good things? The reason we have these things is because we have the ability to know the difference but you cannot understand love without ever having any knowledge of hate. We only understand beauty in its relationship to what is ugly so it is the ability to know the difference (good and evil) that is the baseline of being made in God’s image.
Let me preface my above statement by saying that I do realize that it is the serpent talking in Genesis 3:4-5 and the serpent is a liar but the serpent’s job was to get man to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and he used man’s own weakness in the flesh to influence him to do just that. This was not an accident. What happened in the garden happened exactly how God intended for things to happen. Man being made in the image of God is not something intended to accomplish overnight. This is a process. It is customary belief within Christianity that man being made in the image of God meant that man was made perfect and man chose to fall but there is a fallacy in that belief. The fallacy is, “how can a perfect creation become imperfect”? That would seem to be a contradiction then we read this in Romans 8:20;
For the creation was made subjected to vanity, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Subject to vanity? The word vanity is translated from the Greek word “mataiotēs” and it literally means depraved or that which is devoid of truth and appropriateness. When we apply this understanding to the creation in Genesis, we can understand that God knew full well that man would eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and He intended for that to be so. God provided everything for man to disobey. Firstly, man was made flesh and the flesh cannot please God. God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and put it in the midst of the garden. According to man, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was pleasant to the eyes, good for food, and able to make one wise. Is this not and accurate depiction of the lust of the eyes, the lusts of the flesh, and the pride of life? Man had already sinned in his heart well before he ate any fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Then for good measure, God created a really clever snake and allowed him in the garden to deceive them. This was all preplanned by God. Yes, man’s disobedience was ordained by God. Man becoming like God or being made in the image of God was not a direct consequence of man’s disobedience, it was all called and authorized by the will of God. It makes no sense for God to create man as the superior creation and then leave man in a state of ignorance.
I’m not saying that death has to be a “likeness” of God for God to teach man about the value and preciousness of life. God is the life giver and His very essence is life. He is not subject to death because God is not mortal, man is. Eventually mankind will be immortal but man will also know and understand what death is from experience. Man can then appreciate life with such knowledge. Remember that God did come down to earth in the form of a man and died for us so that God could conquer death for all of us.
“My other question is: Is not the “man in our own image, after our likeness referring to the creation and not knowing good and evil? coz it seems we are not created to be like God who should know good and evil but as stewards of God’s creations”.
There are a lot of ways we are made in God’s image. Marriage – two being one and God, the Elohim family. God is a Father and we have the ability to be parents. Having dominion is just one of the duties God gave to man as a result of the being the superior creation. When man eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, what God says after that is what is most important. God did not say, behold, now the man has dominion over the creation, God said, behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. Becoming “like” God or made in God’s “likeness” = having the knowledge of good and evil. This wasn’t the punishment, death was the punishment.
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Thanks for your explanation. Sorry but I want to be sure if I get it right.
So back to creation (I have to imagine the scenario from where it all began in my head literally). God created Adam and Eve from the dust and He knows they are “weak” which I believe prone to sin. HE also created them with the “knowledge of good and evil” ALREADY, I mean the ability to know the difference because as you point out one cannot appreciate beauty without knowing what is ugly coz where/she compare beauty to? same with love and hate and so on.
I think I was interpreting it by order of events thinking that when Genesis 3:22 said “The man has NOW become like one of us, knowing good and evil” that’s the only time Man acquired his awareness of evil, that is why they felt shame and guilt. I am not sure, but it seems the word NOW to me, meant as a confirmation of an action, it’s like as expected.
If I can put it, man already knows good but not evil, when they eat the fruit, it triggered the motion of their journey of evil to which God has set for them to experience. So with the verse “knowing good and evil” it means they will be subjected to know the difference. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
I agree with what you said that Adam is not perfect coz if he is, he should have not eaten the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil but the fruit of the tree of life instead. So the serpent did what God created him to do, which is to entice Eve to eating the fruit and the rest is history.
Okay with the Satan, God did not create him alone right? Cos there are stories in the Bible during Jesus’time that mentioned He encountered them, which they said they are “legions” and possessed the pigs and drowned.
I also want to know your thoughts about 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment.
Who are these angels that sinned? Are they the one who took wives here on earth during Noah’s time?
Thanks again!
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Sure, I know that it is a very difficult thing to unlearn a lot of the things we have been taught from the church. The church never teaches its attendees how to really study the scriptures and to be critical of obvious contradictions in some of Christianity’s theologies. I want to make sure that you understand what I am trying to explain. When God created man, He created man flesh and with the flesh comes all of the lusts with it (Remember Romans 8:20). God did not create man with the knowledge of good and evil, God created them too weak for them to resist the desires of their own flesh. What I’m trying to convey is that God set this up intentionally because it was always God’s intention for man to have knowledge of good and evil which is part of the process in becoming “like” God and made in His likeness. It wasn’t until they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that their eyes were opened and they then knew that they were naked. They were aware of what shame was because beforehand, the scriptures describe them as being naked and not ashamed kind of like how babies are (unaware and innocent). I think one of the reasons why Genesis is difficult for some to understand comes from not properly interpreting the ancient Hebrew language. Remember that in the ancient Hebrew language, there were no tenses for past, present, or future. Biblical Hebrew is an aspectual language with perfect or imperfect verbs that describe events that have been completed or events that haven’t been completed. The way we determine perfect and imperfect forms is through the context of any given passage. So in Genesis 3:22, it should read, “Man is BECOMING like one of Us” because it is clear that man has not become like God as a finished project. Here is another example for you… When God told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God said that Adam would surely die but did Adam die immediately after eating from the tree? No, of course not Adam lived for 930 years then he died. So the proper way to interpret Genesis 2:17 is, “you shall surely be dying and not you shall surely die”. Did God plan for man to die? Yes He did.
Genesis 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
God never intended for man to be immortal or perfect in the flesh. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that man “knew” what good was any more than an infant knows that being held is good. It feels good or it feels comfortable but one’s eyes must be opened to know or to have awareness of what is good or evil.
God never intended for Adam to eat from the tree of life in the beginning because man needs to learn and experience good, evil, and death to humble us for what is to come. There were no accidents or mistakes. Everything that happened happened exactly how God intended for things to happen.
Yes there are other evil forces besides just Satan. We already know that God had knowledge of evil before the creation of man because He created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Paul talks about principalities, powers, rulers of darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places in Ephesians 6:12 but where did all of that originate from? Did God not create the “heavens” and the earth? In Colossians 1:16, we read that Jesus Christ is the creator of all things;
For by him were all things created, that are in HEAVEN, and that are in earth, visible and INVISIBLE, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or PRINCIPALITIES, or POWERS: all things were created by him, and for him:
Are you able to see the connection here?
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.
In regards to 2 Peter 2:4, I talk about his verse in my series on the false doctrine of hell. This may be one of the worse translated verses in the whole bible. The entire phrase, “cast them down to hell” or “sent them to hell” is translated from a single Greek VERB which is “tartaroo”. Not only is this terrible bible translating, it has also given way for Christianity to invent all kinds of stupid doctrines. There is NO hell, hades, gehenna, or any place that these “angels” are being held for judgment. Part of the problem with the interpretation of this verse is the indoctrination of the word “angel”. In the Greek, the word is “angelos” and it simply means a messenger. This same word is used to describe John the Baptist a messenger, the spiritual messengers of the Lord, and the messengers of the devil. There is no distinction because these different messengers are all described using the same word but we are programmed to think that every time we see the word “angel”, we assume that it’s referring to an angel or messenger from heaven. That is not always the case. I am of the belief that the angels of heaven do not sin. Earthly messengers sin and the messengers of the devil sin but not the messengers of God in heaven. So, Peter could be referring to earthly messengers or messengers of the devil in 2 Peter 2:4 but most certainly not the angels of the Lord. The chapter doesn’t specify but the context of 2 Peter is clearly talking about false prophets and false teachers so it would seem to be consistent for the angel messengers of verse 4 to be referring to earthly messengers. Genesis 6:1-2 are two of the most perverted scriptures in all of Christianity.
Genesis 6:1-2 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
Most people assume that the “sons of God” in this context is referring to the angels of God but that is not always true. The phrase is used interchangeably and can refer to both the angels of heaven and earthly men so some instances require us to dig a little deeper. These “sons of God” are earthly men and we can be sure of that because the scripture says that they took WIVES for themselves. How does a man acquire a wife? He has to MARRY a woman right? Well the angels of God in heaven do not marry.
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
I had a discussion about this with someone several months ago and they simply did not want to give up this disgusting doctrine of the angels of heaven having sex with earthly women to produce the Nephilim giants. I realize that it sounds entertaining but it is nothing but a bunch of perverted Christian fiction.
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Hi again,
Okay, I think get it now. Thank you very much for clarifying.
So God has planned everything and not as we are told like he is a hero to the rescue because someone has messed up the plan (which I think this is only applicable to Superman and Lex Luthor as the Devil kind of story).
I found a verse Psalm 103:14 – which says “for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.” (NIV) another translation (New Living Translation) put the word “weak” instead. So this contradicts the notion the we are good and perfect. We are “good” as innocent and not perfect because of what Adam did.
Someone told me that the tree of life were there in the Garden of Eden to be eaten by Adam and Eve eventually but I’ve never seen any verse from the Bible that said so, except in Revelation 2:7 – Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
I just wonder why God put the tree of life in the garden of Eden at the same time with the tree of knowledge of good and evil. coz if He never intended for them to eat it then why would He put it there? I mean if the tree of Knowledge of good and evil is the main goal for them to eat the fruit from (with the help of Satan and God knows this already) why there is a tree of life in there? Sorry, I am just thinking that there should be a purpose to why God put it there coz as you said every thing He does has a purpose and it is well planned.
It’s really difficult to fully understand what is written, plus I do not have the different sources to compare the things I am confused about, except what is written in my own copy of the Bible and the internet. Did you do any special studies about the Scriptures? coz I noticed you are very knowledgeable in the Scriptures and the translations. I hope you don’t mind my asking, I’m just curious.
I guess in Genesis 6:1-2 this verse fit the story of fallen angels who has taken an earthly bodies ( where they said that angels/spirit beings can do that like when they met up with Abraham before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah) to sleep with earthly women and have children _Nephilims” and when the flood came these ängels” went back to heaven and left their families to die. That is why it is weird to read the word Nephilim referenced to Goliath because I thought they should have died in the flood so I knew there should be a better explanation than a Greek myth story. I got that story from witnesses. They even said that when the angels returned to heaven, God did not accept them anymore so they became the wanderers or maybe joined satan’s fold.
In Matthew 8:29″What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
What is the appointed time the demon was asking to Jesus? Is Satan and his demons will be judged as well?
From what I understand, they will be locked up and God will release them after a thousand years to deceive the nations again so I am wondering if after these things happen, will they cease to exist? Coz someone said they are spirits being and spirits do not die? Or will they be locked up in the abyss? which I am not sure where? Maybe a place only God knows.
Thank you very much for your patience!
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Yes, God has planned everything and there is no detail of action that can happen outside of what God allows.
There is a verse in Genesis that talks about the tree of life being in the garden;
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
It was there but God never intended for man to eat from the tree of life without first acquiring the knowledge of good and evil.
Just because we don’t know or understand God’s purpose about a certain issue doesn’t mean that He doesn’t have a purpose. We may never obtain a satisfactory answer to all of our questions and we should be aware of that. I can’t tell you why God put the tree of life in the garden but I can speculate and believe that there existed a tree that brought life and another tree that brought death. Remember the whole idea of having an alternative spectrum? What is love without hate, good without evil, life without death? It is after understanding and experiencing death that we grow to appreciate life. Man was not ready for immortality.
I use Bible Gateway and BlueletterBible as online sources to study the scriptures. There is a wealth of information out there that can be useful for you. Google Gary Arnault or L. Ray Smith as they have websites with a lot of good information. L. Ray Smith’s Lake of Fire series is life-changing. It’s a long read but very insightful. I would also recommend watching some videos on YouTube. The Total Victory of Christ is a good channel to start with. It will take some time to learn and grow so be patient.
Yes, demons will be judged as well but understand that the word “torture” is not a good translation for the original Greek word. A better translation would say “tested” and not tortured. When there is no one on earth to deceive the nations, Satan and his “demons” are figuratively locked up but they are not literally locked up in a jail cell. They will not cease to exist they will be tested for the ages of the ages in the lake of fire where they will be purged of their evil.
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Did you mean Gary Amirault, from “Tentmaker.” He is in this realm of understanding and believing. And if he is your reference, then you also know of Ray Prinzing, George Hawtin, J. Preston Eby, Elwin Roach, and many others who understand much in the way that we do. I could go on, however we are to put no man between us and our Father. Knowledge, wisdom and understanding are fabulous things to possess but if we have not love, we are missing the point of the knowledge. 1 Corinthians 13 says it so well. “All” things are to bring us to the love (1 Corinthians 13:13) of our Father for love is the end of all the mysteries, allegories, parables and all of the other teaching tools. Love (our Father’s likeness and character) is our end in Him so let us not glory in the letter but in the spirit. A man who seeks his own glory has no glory. Man mistakes his own ego for the glory of God and the only way to understand the difference in God’s glory and our own ego…is to search for the love of God (our Father) as our only desire. When we do as such, God will reveal to us even further into His kingdom…for His kingdom is reached through our love one for the other. True love is a giving nature..because our Father first gives to us..to give. Therefore take no thought of what we should receive from others for the government of God are all givers, the first resurrection people giving to second resurrection people, thus making us all one…then as with Christ, when the first fruits have done their job, they will relinquish all authority back to the Father for when all are made one…we will be one spirit in all people. It is a humble way to reach the “heavens” above for to reach the mind of God, we must want it for all. As you have written here, God is only good and everything, even evil itself was created for the good off all. It’s all a learning experience in order to be as our Father is. The end does justify the means.
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Hi again Randolf,
Thank you so much for your reply.
The part when you said God did not intend to eat the fruit of the tree of life without knowing good and evil first did make sense. The fact the He put the cherubim to guard it (Genesis 3:24) portrayed the seriousness if they did try to go there and take some.
Talking about “cherubim”, they were described as angels of God which makes me wonder why in Ezekiel 28:14 the King of Tyre was referred as cherub or anointed cherub?
“You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.”
And verses 12 were used by many to point out that it is an angel (seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty).
Verse 13 said YOU WERE IN EDEN, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes. WAS PREPARED FOR YOU ON THE DAY YOU WERE CREATED.
These two verses are used to show that Satan is an angel; perfect being and wise (till iniquity was found in you Eze 28:15 which they said when he became conceited of his beauty) and it does not any way referring to the King of Tyre, because of the reference to the Garden of Eden.
So I am looking for an explanation about this verse. I am searching of the word cherub but the only ones I found is winged angelic being or chubby looking child with wings. I am sure there is an explanation but I can’t find any good ones.
I believe that angels are servants of God and they were created to serve Him. They were not created beings who can do whatever they want but their purpose is to do what God told them to do, period. Thinking that they can be enticed by women (like in Noah’s time) or even suddenly feel pride within themselves, for me makes God’s ability as a creator to be flawed. God will never create something that He does not know what it will turn out and just deal with it as it goes along. I believe God is more powerful than that.
I would appreciate very much if you can enlighten me on this one? Thank you very much for taking your time.
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The king of Tyre was a man not an angel.
Ezekiel 28:2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,’ Yet YOU ARE A MAN, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god.
Ezekiel 28:14 is not translated properly in most popular bible translations that follow after the King James Version. Notice the difference in some other translations;
I appointed an angel to guard you. (Names of God Bible)
I appointed a living creature to guard you. (New Century Version)
I put a terrifying angel there to guard you. (Good News Translation)
I appointed a living creature to guard you. (Expanded Bible)
I placed you there with an anointed guardian cherub; (New English Translation)
The king of Tyre wasn’t the cherub, God assigned a cherub to cover or to protect the king of Tyre just like He appointed a cherub to guard/watch the tree of life. Hebrew words have genders and must follow the grammar rules associated with the same gender. The KJV has a feminine pronoun linked to a masculine noun which is a grammar violation.
If you go back in Ezekiel 27:3, you’ll see that it was Tyre that first boasted about having “perfect beauty” but that doesn’t necessarily mean sinless or flawless. Some of the patriarchs in the Old Testament were said to have been perfect but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t have sin for “all have sinned”. The kingdom of Tyre is about to come crashing down because of it’s pride this has nothing to do with Satan.
People assume that being in Eden has to refer to some isolated place or event in the past as if “Eden” cannot take place at any time that God sees fit. The Hebrew word Eden means “pleasure” and it is simply referring to God taking care of every physical pleasure necessary to sustain a man’s life but there is a higher life, a spiritual life. In Revelation 2:7, Jesus says to those that overcome He will give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the “paradise” of God. What is the paradise of God? Well, the word “paradise” has Persian origin and can be defined as a garden so the garden of God and the paradise of God both seem to have the same meaning. God ordained the king of Tyre and protected him. He caused the nation to flourish and to become wealthy. God could pick any location in the entire universe and make it “Eden” because Eden is based on conditions not location.
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I have found in concordant.org a version of this subject. It said there “The function and employment of the cheribum are opposite to that of the Dragon, that ancient serpent, called Adversary and Satan. It deceives the nations and promotes evil. The cherubim checks the powers of evil. E.H.Clayton”
It is a good piece but for some reason it is hard for me to understand (maybe the language barrier that limits my comprehension or it is too sophisticated for me).
Anyway, your version is much easier to understand because it is simple and direct. Ezekiel 28:2 shows God is referring to a man not an angel and the following verses was written like a poetic style. In concordant version, it did not mention the word Eden but “garden of God” instead, but most of the translation I’ve seen, they use the word Eden.
Yeah I think people focus on the literal sense of the Garden of Eden, as the actual place. I did not realize the condition that God has set there compared to the outside of it until Adam and Eve got banished. As God who can create and destroy; a God who has the power to do what He pleases, surely He can set the condition again whether literally or spiritually.
Now my questions has finally been answered about the King of Babylon and the King of Tyre, praise be to God.
Thank you for making me study the Scriptures again with enthusiasm and new hope. May God Almighty bless you and keep you safe.
I hope you will not get tired answering my questions 🙂
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Hi Randolph,
I am having difficulty with Genesis 3:14
Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field…”
I understand now that God has created Satan for the purpose of deception and promoting evil so I am confused with this verse.
I am not sure if I am understanding this right. Why does God need to curse or say this to the serpent when it is supposed to be doing what God intended it to do?
The part “because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle…’ is something I don’t understand nor connect with the idea of God’s purpose of creating Satan.
Someone said this is a curse to both literally and figuratively creatures but it doesn’t give much explanation to me on why God needed to curse the creature?
Hope you can give me your thoughts on this.
Thanks again!
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There’s more to Genesis 3:14 that says, “upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life”. Do literal serpents/snakes eat dust/dirt? No, so what does this dust/dirt represent? Man is dust and the serpent’s curse is to be the destroyer of man (flesh).
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I usually don’t do this but lemme just speak my mind here..Have a quiz for you,why do you believe everything is spiritual?Having left from the lowest level of believing the Bible literally now you’re on the highest spectrum believing sth is spiritual when the real meaning could be literal..like serpents literally feed on dust why believe God meant otherwise?The serpent must have been sth else before but it was cursed to go on it’s belly which we see everyday..also you are on the highest spectrum that perfect beings can’t be imperfect..I don’t know why you are so sure abt that when it could just be the opposite..as it’s written in Peter,God didn’t spare the angels when they SINNED and in Ezekiel 28…you were perfect in your ways UNTIL INIQUITY was found in you.. You might try to go around this explaining that this was addressed to a man but no man has ever been PERFECT and no man has ever been created using precious stones..you just cling to one verse and use it to justify your beliefs when the Bible says we should have 2 or 3 witnesses to pass judgement.. Bible wise,we should have at least 2 or 3 scriptures to create a doctrine..you say that God subjected creation to futility and use this to mean man was created evil as well as satan..This isn’t the case coz all the evil in the world is as a result of God’s curse on Adam after their disobedience..Adam was created perfect but was like an immature baby they didn’t know it is right to obey or wrong to disobey..when tempted by satan(and oh when Jesus says satan was a sinner from the beginning you should know his audience;humans..and the Bible starts with the phrase,’in the beginning’..This shouldn’t be mistaken with the beginning of invisible angelic creations who may have existed before creation of earth as in Prov 8:22-30..so when Jesus says the devil sinned from the beginning,he is speaking of the sin which the devil did to us..deceiving Eve way back in the BEGINNING of the human race..) they fell into his lies not coz they were imperfect but coz there’s nothing wrong with eating a FRUIT..It became sin to eat from the forbidden tree ONLY coz God made it so..This sin isn’t like the evil we know as of today like murder..which our consciences bear witness that it’s EVIL.. It’s like being told not to eat certain food which even now our consciences don’t recognize that as sin..IT ONLY BECAME SIN WHEN GOD MADE IT SO..Am against also your understanding that there can’t be good without evil..unbiblical and probably from the yin and yang..Angels have knowledge of good and evil like Jesus and yet they choose good only being holy to God..They do understand evil but they hate it owing to their holy natures..If God wanted us to have knowledge of good and evil, wouldn’t He have created us like angels on earth?Also God didn’t want man to be in heaven as you suppose He did,why? The earth is the final dwelling place of the saints when new heavens and new earth will be created..as written, blessed are the meek for they will INHERIT EARTH.. There’s nothing like learning evil so we can be made in the likeness of God..God has never sinned like we do..Have you read Rom 9:22:What if God desiring to SHOW HIS WRATH and to MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN,has endured with much patience the VESSELS OF WRATH(wicked unchosen humans) MADE FOR DESTRUCTION..Here God created the wicked people to show His wrath by destroying them(again the lake of fire is truly a place of destruction) It’s written also God will not spare the wicked lest the righteous sin,Ps 125:3..We are humans just understanding who God is.. let’s not make God’s character, in our own minds, what we love but let’s believe who He TRULY IS as the Bible reveals Him..If He is against our own moral ways let Him be who He is,God..Like some people will read the Old Testament and believe God is a wrathful God just coz He doesn’t fit in their moral way of thinking..I feel you are part of those people who believe a loving God can’t send people to everlasting punishment in a literal lake of fire..well the fire might not be literal but it rep how the torments will be so great.. it’s as if being burned alive with sulphur..If the devil is God’s instrument of evil why would the righteous judge angels(I believe the fallen ones for the holy ones are blameless),1 Cor 6:3..Why would the devil fight against God’s holy angels in Rev?There is a real battle going on and saying that the devil was cursed to devour humans is NO CURSE at all you’re seeing at what isn’t there..Why would Jesus die a painful death to overcome the devil and have keys of DEATH and HADES(I believe hades is just grave not hellfire as believed and that one becomes unconscious in death until resurrection) if there’s no battle for our souls?Why are the righteous persecuted if the devil isn’t against all righteousness?You not believing that holy angels can sin shows that you don’t want to accept the true reality of things..just humble yourself to God’s word..Have you read in Rev 18 where heaven dedicated a whole chapter to talk against Babylon symbolic of the devil’s kingdom? and chapter 17..the judgement of the great harlot?Is this name calling just a joke or this shows that there are two warring sides?As you grow in faith you will understand the justice of God in sending people to eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels,Mat 25:41..Do you see it was already prepared for the devil?How then can you say the devil didn’t sin against God and will be saved too when judgement has been pronounced on him already? Christians didn’t invent hell as you say it’s pagan but the scriptures do say it..and my def of hell is the lake of fire not as people say when you die you go to hell you cease to exist is my belief until resurrection
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I have NEVER stated that “everything” is spiritual but I do believe that there is a spiritual application to all of the essential messages in the bible. Everyone doesn’t have to same level of spiritual understanding or gifts to be able to understand the spiritual meaning behind the physical pictures demonstrated in the scriptures. The bible is full of symbolic and metaphorical language and even Christ used parables that hid the meaning of the stories. Christ had to explain the parables most of the time because no one understood what He was talking about. If you believe that everything was literal in the garden and it had to happen exactly the way it was written that is perfectly fine with me. I don’t expect everyone to agree with everything that I say I just try to get people to think beyond what the church has taught us. Have you ever seen a literal tree of the knowledge of good and evil in nature? What does its fruit look like?
Do you know what a contradiction is? If a being is perfect, then it can’t be imperfect because that would disqualify it from being perfect. It is a bad assumption on your part to assume that the “angels” spoken of in 2 Peter 2:4 have to spiritual angels of God in heaven. The word “angel” comes from the Greek word “aggelos” and it simply means a messenger. The word itself has nothing to do with what we have become accustomed to thinking when we think about what an angel is. In Luke 7:24, John the Baptist is called a “messenger” but this word comes from the same word translated as “angel” in 2 Peter 2:4. If these angel/messengers sinned then there is some argument that these angel/messengers had to be human because the wages of sin is DEATH and the angels of heaven do not die (Luke 20:36). In regards to Ezekiel 28:15, I am assuming that you have bought into the Christian tradition that this context is referring to Lucifer personified as the prince of Tyre but what other proof do you have other than some bizarre interpretation? Where are you 2 or 3 witnesses because it appears that you have passed judgment on me claiming that I just cling to one verse and use it to justify my beliefs? Have you read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 28 or are you just parroting the verse that you think justifies your claim? Let’s read what the actually bible says to prove you wrong on this particular issue;
Ezekiel 28:1-2 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, “Son of man, say to the PRINCE OF TYRE, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Because your heart is lifted up, And you say, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,’ YET YOU ARE A MAN, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god.
The bible is clear and the context is clear that the Son of man (Ezekiel) is proclaiming a lamentation to the prince of Tyre who is a MAN and not some spiritual being named Lucifer. You error is misunderstanding how the bible uses the word “perfect”. The word “perfect” as it is used in Ezekiel 28:15 is better understood as meaning without fault in a law-abiding sense. Job and Noah were described as being “perfect” but that doesn’t mean that that they didn’t have sin because all have sinned. Even we as humans can assess a person’s behavior and character to determine if they are “good” by our own standards. I agree that no man has ever been perfect (save Christ), but your fallacy is not understanding how the word perfect is being used in the context of certain scriptures.
You said, “no man has ever been created using precious stones” which I assume is another attempt of you trying to justify that the context of Ezekiel 28 is not to a man but to Satan but you are grasping for straws. It is sad how desperate religious people can be when then insist on embracing their own heresies. Job 26:13 says that the crooked serpent was formed from God’s hand and not made with precious stones so I honestly do not know how you came to that conclusion. In Ezekiel 28:13, the prince of Tyre is being described as being covered with every precious stone which simply means that he was decked out in jewelry. God ordained the prince of Tyre to be a symbol of righteousness and justice but he got caught up in the wealth and power.
Ezekiel 28:16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned;
The prince of Tyre became extremely wealthy and powerful from his successful merchandising which led to him becoming a greedy evil tyrant. He was no longer the symbol of God’s goodness and that is why the scriptures state… “until iniquity was found in you”. It is sheer foolishness to think that this context is referring to a perfect being that somehow decided not to be perfect. I think the person clinging to one verse is YOU because I’ve quoted several verses to support my claims while you’ve done nothing but parrot Christian dogmas.
You said, “you say that God subjected creation to futility and use this to mean man was created evil as well as satan..This isn’t the case coz all the evil in the world is as a result of God’s curse on Adam after their disobedience”.
Actually, Romans 8:20 says that God subjected the creation to futility (vanity, worthlessness) so don’t act like I’m just making things up. This is what the scripture says but it is you that believes something contrary to what the scriptures say. Man was created FLESH and the flesh cannot please God in fact, Romans 8:7 says that the carnal mind, (the natural mind of the flesh) is ENMITY against God. The word enmity means HATRED and this verse goes even further to say that the carnal mind is not even subject to the laws of God neither can it be. What do you think Romans 8:20 means if for some reason it doesn’t mean what it actually says? Let me provide you with a second witness to appease your earlier criticism and to prove to you that man was created with the natural propensity to do evil.
Jeremiah 13:23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin or a leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
There is no question here about man’s capacity for evil because being accustomed to doing evil is being compared to the skin of an Ethiopian and the spots of a leopard which are both examples of how a person or animal is created. If you are born tall you are going to be tall and there’s nothing you can do about it. It is a very common Christian tradition that teaches that Adam was created perfect but that tradition is a bad one and you further prove that. Earlier in your comment when you was trying to defend the perfect Satan doctrine, you said and I quote, “NO MAN HAS EVER BEEN PERFECT”, but then you turn around and say that Adam was created perfect…. I know I asked this before but I will ask it again… Do you know what a contradiction is? You literally have no shame in the amount of lies you are willing to repeat. Adam was NOT created perfect and for you to equate perfection with immaturity surely explains why you are so confused. Adam was not like an immature baby he was a grown man with a wife and a job. They knew what was good and they knew the consequences of what God told them not to do but they chose what was more appealing to their flesh.
John 8:44 says that the devil was a MURDERER from the beginning and there is only one record of the devil’s beginning that we have evidence of and not some fairytale created by Christians to justify their own heretical doctrines.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.
The devil had a beginning and there is no evidence that it took place before or during an unknown period of time when God created the heavenly hosts of angels. That is just sheer speculation on your part and you have an investment in that speculation because it supports your Christian theories. Proverbs 8 has nothing to do with created beings “wisdom” is being personified as a woman.
Proverbs 8:1 Doth not WISDOM cry? and understanding put forth HER voice?
Proverbs 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (The Lord possessed WISDOM!)
Proverbs 8: 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: (WISDOM was there!)
So when Jesus says the devil was a murderer from the beginning, he is speaking about the devil’s beginning which was his only beginning and not some imaginary beginning where he was once a perfect angel named Lucifer. Adam and Eve fell for the devil’s lies because they were made subject to futility (vanity) and they gave in to the pulls of their flesh. Sin is a condition that begins in the heart. They didn’t just choose to eat from the forbidden tree for no reason they saw that it was good for food, pleasant to look at, and able to make one wise.
I never said that there can’t be good without evil. I said that you cannot have knowledge of good without the knowledge of evil. What is truth without the knowledge of lies? How can you understand love without an understanding of hate? Essentially all virtues exist from the overcoming of some form of evil. How can you demonstrate forgiveness if you’ve never been wronged? Developing godly character takes time, experience, challenge, effort, pain, and suffering and God was fully aware of this when He created mankind.
Reading your commentary is certified cringe-worthy because nearly all of your comments are based on your religious traditions and not the scriptures. You don’t hardly even quote scriptures although I must confess that I don’t think it would do a lick of good in your case.
Again, angels are messengers… The Greek word for angel means messenger so you need to throw away your traditional view of what an angel is because it is skewed. There are earthly messengers and then there are heavenly messengers. An earthly messenger cannot choose to be a heavenly messenger in the same way that a heavenly messenger cannot choose to be an earthly messenger.
There are good messengers and then there are evil messengers but these messengers do what they were created to do. A messenger created by God to be good cannot choose evil and an evil messenger created by God cannot choose good. The devil doesn’t choose evil because he was created to do such. This will be impossible for you to understand as long as you keep thinking that Satan was really an angel named Lucifer that decided to become a devil. I agree that Jesus has knowledge of good and evil because Jesus is part of the Elohim – God family “Let US make man in OUR image”. Jesus is not a created being like the angels of heaven He is the first –BORN of creation. He has a will unlike that of the angels of heaven but Jesus is also not like man born under sin. Jesus is the Son of God.
You said, “If God wanted us to have knowledge of good and evil, wouldn’t He have created us like angels on earth?”
No… if God wanted us to have knowledge of good and evil, He would’ve created man flesh subject to vanity and incapable of following God’s laws. He would’ve created a tree of the knowledge of good and evil and put in the same garden that man was responsible for keeping. He would’ve made this tree pleasant to look at, good for good, and able to make one wise. He would’ve created a really smart and cunning beast to help influence man to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God would’ve done all of those things if He wanted man to have knowledge of good and evil and it just so happens that this is exactly what God did. What did God say when man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever (for the age):
Mankind acquiring the knowledge of good and evil was not a mistake it was purposed by God.
You said, “God didn’t want man to be in heaven as you suppose He did, why?
We would first have to agree as to what “in heaven” means before I could even attempt to reconcile that strange question. The vast majority of Christians believe that they will go to a literal heaven when they die while I believe no such thing.
Revelation 12:12 Therefore REJOICE, O HEAVENS, AND YOU WHO DWELL IN THEM! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Obviously there is more to “heaven” than most people realize.
Yes I have read Romans 9:22… I’ve read the whole chapter. What is your point? Here again you contradict yourself earlier claiming that man wasn’t created evil then you quote Romans 9:22 saying that God created wicked people. Which one is it? You can’t even be consistent with your own conclusions. And I certainly do not need a lesson on how to view God especially from someone as contradictory and willing to believe lies as you. The irony of you trying to criticize me for making God’s character up in my own mind based on something I love with this notion that I don’t believe who He truly is as the bible reveals Him. You are grossly naïve and extremely ignorant because not all bibles even agree. There has always been division in the Christian community and that division also exists with how bibles have been translated.
You said, “Like some people will read the Old Testament and believe God is a wrathful God just coz He doesn’t fit in their moral way of thinking. I feel you are part of those people who believe a loving God can’t send people to everlasting punishment in a literal lake of fire… well the fire might not be literal but it rep how the torments will be so great.. it’s as if being burned alive with sulphur”.
Lord have mercy you are just unbelievable… God’s ways are HIGHER than the ways of men and even I as a man am aware that burning people in fire for even a minute is rank evil. I am one of those people that actually study to show themselves approved instead the many that follow the status quo within the Christian religion. Have you not read my paper on The Truth about Eternal and Everlasting? There is no such thing as everlasting punishment and I have written about it already so I’m not going to repeat it here. Everlasting punishment was a concept that the church borrowed from pagan cultures when they saw how effective it was in controlling the masses of people. The purpose of punishment is to correct. Punishment that never ends is not punishment. If I punish my daughter for her misbehavior I have to give her an opportunity to change. If I punish her forever not only can she not learn or change it would make me the evil person in the world. You don’t know what you are talking about you are just repeating Christian dogmas. You also do not know what the lake of fire is as it is not a literal lake of fire. The judgment of God has a refining redeeming purpose not an unredeemable place for the sole purpose of torturing people. I don’t deny that judgment won’t be painful but there is nothing that can be compared to being literally burned with fire. That is ridiculous. Your usage of the word “sulphur” which the bible calls brimstone had a cleaning purifying application back then and most certainly not to literally burn people. What I’ve found to be quite interesting is the people that believe in hell so fervently are also completely convinced that they will avoid the place. What a convenient set of circumstances for you and your ilk.
You make too many assumptions in your line of questioning further assuming that I must agree with your line of thinking. When God eradicates evil He will have to bring the devil into judgment because there will no longer be a need for evil. The righteous judging evil messengers is how God will judge evil in the judgment. The phrase “fallen angels” is kind of a misnomer for me because of all the religious implications it brings. I do not believe that the devil literally convinced the angels of God in heaven to join his team. That is religious fantasy. The devil is not fighting against God’s holy angels in heaven. You don’t even know what heaven is. Your mind is polluted with too much Christian fantasy. I am aware that there is a real battle that we have to contend with but this battle is spiritual not physical.
Jesus didn’t die a painful death to overcome the devil. He died a painful death to overcome sin and death. It was the will of God for Christ to be bruised for our sins but God’s plan is not a soul winning campaign. Soul winning was something invented by the church but in God’s plan, everyone is a winner eventually. There are no losers in God’s plan. Is God not the keeper of all souls? How can someone take anything away from God? Do you not see how ridiculous the implications you are making? Remember again that the devil got permission from God to devour Job but he was expressly told not to take his life. The devil can only do what God authorizes or allows.
Why are the righteous persecuted? I imagine there’s more than one reason but I believe the biggest reason is to be set apart from the world. The devil isn’t against anything the devil is doing exactly what he was created to do. If a holy angel can sin then it was never holy. You don’t know what holy means if you think that a holy angel can sin. Telling me to humble myself to God’s word is funny coming from someone that embraces so many religious lies.
I’m not going to get into a huge debate with you over the book of Revelation especially seeing how falsely interpret other scriptures. I’ve never stated that there wasn’t a war and that there is nothing to fight for or overcome but I’ve already stated that our war is spiritual not physical. The devil is not God’s enemy. God doesn’t have enemies. You speak of things you know nothing about. Do you know who or what the great harlot is? Don’t project your foolish religious ideas over me as if I need spiritual advice from someone that has bought into the evil lie of eternal fire. There is NO such thing as “eternal fire” and this fire is not even literal fire. This is a spiritual fire and it is temporary not eternal. Why do you shamelessly repeat Christian dogmas within even trying to confirm or study to show yourself approved? Matthew 25:41 is one of Christianity’s favorite hell verses and ironically enough Christians have no idea what it means. They don’t know who the devil’s messengers are but I can assure you that it’s not 1/3 of God’s angels in heaven. The messengers of the devil are the lying hypocritical clergy of Christianity that teaches that most of the world’s inhabitants will roast in hell for all eternity. The purpose of judgment is correction and rehabilitation. Torturing a conscious being forever is not judgment it is rank evil and rank heresy. I know that Christians didn’t invent hell they borrowed it from the pagan cultures and then they added it to the Word of God because of how effective the concept of eternal punishment was in controlling the masses of people. Hell is not scripture and it is not a part of God’s Word. If a man changes the scriptures does it change what God said? No, it doesn’t and the person responsible for such will face judgment for adding to and taking away from the Word of God. You will face judgment for believing such lies that blaspheme the very God you seemingly claim to believe in. There are some bibles that do not translate a single word as hell. Young’s Literal Translation is one them and most popular bibles do not even agree as to how hell should be translated. The Wycliffe Bible was a bible that existed in 14th century Europe and it included the word hell 122 times. Fast forward some almost 3 centuries when we get to the King James Version hell is only found 54 times. Can you explain why hell was removed 68 times from a translation that preceded it? You don’t know what you are talking about. Read my paper on hell before you make comments being critical of things you know nothing about.
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2 Chronicles 18 18-23
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What is your point in quoting that passage of scripture?
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In your response to Meizen21 your explanation of Matt.26:24 is wanting. You ignore the “woe to”, a phrase which is defined as : “Misfortune or unpleasant consequences await or will happen to one (if something happens).” If you consider the implications of those words which Christ spoke then your interpretation fails. The verse implies that Judas is in for some serious misfortune as a result of his betrayal. The Analytical-Literal Translation interprets this verse (in part) thus: “”But how horrible it will be to that man through whom the Son of Humanity is betrayed!” It appears the traditional translations are much closer to the truth.
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Judas felt remorse and then hung himself. I think that qualifies for your “serious misfortune” as result of his betrayal. It’s not my issue that you prefer a more tragic misfortune greater than suicide. Pity you…
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Your non-Christlike sarcastic response to a valid observation tells me a lot.
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It’s debatable that your observation was valid but even Jesus used sarcasm at times especially when dealing with the Pharisees. You brought that same energy. You said that my interpretation of Matthew 26:24 was wanting and that my interpretation fails but that’s just your opinion which you are entitled to but dude, suicide is HORRIBLE! Would you not agree with that? Woe to the person that does something so despicable that they feel like the only way to cope is to self-terminate. Most people consider suicide to be an unforgivable sin (which is untrue by the way) but that’s what most people think. People use this verse to justify the teaching of hell and you seem to be of the same spirit. So I will not apologize to anyone that believes that eternal torture in fire is an appropriate punishment to any earthly sin including suicide. You seem to think that Judas is going to have a misfortune that’s WORSE than suicide. That’s why I said “pity you” because you act like suicide isn’t an unpleasant consequence. There isn’t anything more non-Christlike than belief in hell.
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“There isn’t anything more non-Christlike than belief in hell.” I agree that an ever burning fire where people will be tortured forever is not part of the gospel of Christ. The fact that I don’t agree with everything you write seems to elicit hostility and sarcasm from you. Matt.7:15-20
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You don’t have to agree with everything I write but if you choose to be critical of something I write how then can you turn around and act offended? Do I use sarcasm at times? I do when I feel its warranted. So what… If you’re going to be critical of something I’ve written you have no basis to judge how I respond. The way I respond might appear to elicit hostility to you but that’s just how you perceive it. I don’t take these matters personal with people who are mostly strangers to me. I write the way I do because I want people to think outside of their comfort zone.
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No, you want people to think inside of your comfort zone.
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If you think this website and all the things I’ve written could ever be described as my “comfort zone”, you are incredibly foolish.
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I really appreciate the work you’ve done here. It’s helped to calm my mind about certain aspects of the bible that are unbelievable but there are a few things I’m confused about still. You say that God created satan to devour the flesh of man, to tempt and deceive us. That he operates in the earthly realm of mind or something like that I don’t really know how to ask my question and it make sense. How do I feel protected from satan and other evils in the world, and not that I’m constantly being manipulated in my own mind? That I’m not constantly being sent something to test me, from God? I don’t understand what satan actually is. You say a spirit and that there are other demons in the world. I don’t understand how they can affect me and what can I do for them to not affect me? If God created these things to purposefully trip us up, then how do I protect myself from their manipulation? Also I still don’t understand how Jesus dying on the cross is atonement for our sin, the sin of the world. How is the actual action of being nailed to a cross and then dying, saving us from eternal death or whatever it’s supposed to represent? Why did God need Jesus to be crucified? The only thing I really understand is that Jesus is God in human form and that his way of living is what we are striving for as human beings and that is how we reach God, when we are like Christ but I don’t understand how dying on a cross saves us from sin?
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Sorry for the delay. I haven’t been active on this site for about a month and I’m just now getting back to reading comments. I don’t believe that anyone can ever feel completely protected from evil but I think it is better to believe that God is able and capable of giving us what we need in moments of weakness and/or trial. The mind is very powerful so it is important to be careful on what you allow to enter your mind.
Do you have an issues with being tested? How can one measure the quality or value of something without being tested? Satan is just another created being of God with a purpose in God’s plan. I’m not sure that I understand exactly where you are coming from when you say things like, “If God created these things to purposefully trip us up”…. trip us up from what? God created us to learn and to experience good and bad. We understand good and evil but evil must exist to know what good is so we experience both good and evil in this life. As difficult and fearful as life can be, this life is only temporary.
The bible says that there is no forgiveness for sin without the shedding of blood and Jesus (who is God incarnate) shed His blood for us. The wages of sin is death and God chose the worse form of death for Christ so that this is death experience would purge us from the death penalty. Jesus wasn’t actually nailed to a cross He was nailed to a tree. That was the preferred method of capital punishment for people who committed the worse kinds of crimes during that time. Crucifixion was apart of the Roman culture and the Roman empire was the dominant secular power during the time of Christ. The Jews had Christ crucified by the Romans under the terms of their courts.
Jesus dying on a cross doesn’t save us from sin, it saves us from death. Judgment saves us from sin.
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